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very informative #62173 02/09/06 11:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 308
Edward Offline OP

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Re: very informative #62174 02/10/06 09:08 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
Remember all the fun we used to have removing that beat up old cheapo flouresent light that only was there for the inspection? Ah the good ol' days are just about over. ( I still have old permits to close the old way.)

Selling all of the dimmers.
The occupancy sensor that will only be there for the inspection.
And my favorite... Throwing the plans back at the Arch's and Designers that have no clue, and telling them to "Start over" for kitchens. (In the last month I have had to do just that for 3 jobs - I love it.)

So in explaining to one guy about the new kitchen rules, he asks, "How many cans can I have?" A: ONE! "Well to have the amount of MR-16 cans that I have designed for, how many undercab little inch fixtures do I need?" A: Hmmm....(tapping on calculator) 50X18=900 - 900/26=34.6 That's 35 42" fixtures! [Linked Image]

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: very informative #62175 02/11/06 01:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 276
trollog Offline
yes, California, the socialist nanny state has arrived. Mostly because people are too stupid to turn off the light bulb when they leave the room. Whatever happened to grandpa's old admonishment (accompanied my a hard slap to the back or side of your head) to turn the &#$% light off! whadda ya think I am, the power company!? My, how fallen, California, how fallen.....

Re: very informative #62176 02/11/06 02:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,623
gfretwell Online Content
My family never figured out that light switch thing. I have motion/occupancy detectors everywhere. Now the low level lights just follow you around the house.

BTW my first one was in the kitchen. I found out they were using the fridge as a nightlight ... and they didn't always turn that "light" off either. Get up in the morning and the milk is warm.

Greg Fretwell
Re: very informative #62177 02/11/06 07:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
pauluk Offline
Hmmm... High-efficacy, dimmers, or motion sensors on all living room and bedroom lighta now? That's an interesting document, especially as I had no idea about the existing 2001 requirments.

If California govt. is anything like here, I'd bet that state-owned buildings are some of the worst offenders when it comes to wasting energy. One of my local govt. offices has multiple spotlights blazing away all day in a corridor which has sufficient natural daylight from windows for most of the time and really needs no artificial light at all, except perhaps for the last couple of hours of opening in winter.

Re: very informative #62178 02/11/06 01:07 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
The word I like to use is "draconian" when describing Title 24. Paul, it does have a commercial side, both have been around for years. The commecial elements have been expanded last cycle, but had some large loopholes for certain types of buisiness use.

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: very informative #62179 02/11/06 01:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 625
SolarPowered Offline
Along the lines of that Paul is going, I wonder how many of our esteemed legislators have upgraded their homes to the current Title 24 requirements? More to the point, I wonder how many when they build something new will stand for a fluorescently-lit kitchen? Judging be what I hear about the number of SUVs they drive to environmental summits, I'm guessing that the percentage who will be willing to submit to their own laws is approximately 0.000% (to three decimal places.)

In another forum, a guy was trying the show the great savings from replacing all your kitchen lumens with fluorescent lighting. After I corrected his math, the monthly savings stood at 94 cents. For 94 cents a month, I would much rather have non-fluorescent lighting.

Re: very informative #62180 02/12/06 02:56 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
e57 Offline
[Linked Image from]

Apparently he has only driven it on photo op's.... [Linked Image] And, I too doubt he and Maria would tollorate any unflattering light in their homes. And I'll bet the very same lobbyists that pushed this through are over for dinner on occassion. (Lossing envelopes of un-marked bills)

Back on topic: I would be interested to know the new "get arounds" that are being devised out there...

Dimmers everywhere, is not much of a hard sell, most want them anyway.

Laundry, and garages in flouresant is not much of a hard sell either.

Baths are easy with the VS/OS switch\" , but could see it being a problem with IR not seeing someone in the shower or bath. (Or other activities) I think ultrasonic would be better. And I already know that customers hate the look of them in switch ganging.

Another expensive method could be a Grafik Eye with a GRX-AV module wired in vacancy sensor mode with a dual technology motion sensor on the cieling.

There are some other motion sensors that can be wire for vacancy/manual on mode, but require a momentary switch in low voltage. Problem is that the switches are not currently made in all of the designer colors/finishes I am often required to get... Figure Lutron would get on that?

All of which could be modified without drasticaly modifying the wiring if it became an issue if the customer later had no will to comlpy with T-24.

Kitchens are a different ball game... The popularity of reccessed incandesant/halogen cans in kitchen seems to be a hard habit to break for people. And as I mentioned before, really hard to equal in wattage. Without having to come back on the sly to drasticaly re-wire the kitchen lighting after the inspection for the lighting the customer actually wanted, you would be forced into using flouresant cans. The only good ones that have any light color that is anywhere near non-disgusting are $200+ each. Cooper/Iris makes a convertable can that could be swapped out, but that would be really pricey too. Or you could just comply with the letter of the law by adding a ridiculous amount of HO flouresent soffit lighting, if you have a soffit to stuff it all in.

Anyone else got any good ideas for bypassing the kitchen design items?

Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: very informative #62181 02/13/06 08:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
pauluk Offline
The word I like to use is "draconian" when describing Title 24. Paul,

Pretty much the way I see it too. I hold very much to the "minimal government" philosophy, and as far as I'm concerned, how much and what type of lighting I install in my own home is my business.

I would think one way the rules will be side-stepped, at least in bedrooms, living rooms, and so on, will be for contractors to fit occupancy sensors initially, then go back after inspection and change them all out for regular switches. The sensors then go back in the box for the next job.


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