ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Commercial Kitchen GFI's

Where are you at in Florida, Wiking?

Hi HP, My responce was based on "Commercial kitchens".

Dwelling units are quite different.

How many homeowners have some one come in with a pressure washer on Sunday morning and wash the kitchen down?
Or have a wet slippery floor all day long?

I agree a break rm does not have these situations either.
In general, GFCI for ALL counter tops, No problem with that.

This 'debate' kind of reminds me of one at another forum, where some were trying to include closets under the definitions of "habitable space." Even the little cupboards under the stairs.

It seems to me that some folks just can't wait for the opportunity to expand the scope of their own personal bias. That such folks have almost never done anything productive, but have spent a lifetime finding fault with others' work, seems a constant.

Now, there are plenty of places I've never been ... but I've yet to enter a space and have trouble telling whether it was a breakroom, or a commercial kitchen.

To be fair, I've seen some of this 'game playing' on the customers' part. Like the guy who claimed his sloped room, with 50 seats and a big screen, was a 'customer viewing room,' and not a 'theater.' Nice try. (He still needed to have more parking - or remove some seats).

The prize for such 'creative' interpretation still goes to governmental officials who are trying to extend their fief. My favorite was the city that tried to apply their building codes to areas outside of the city, claiming the areas were 'within the sphere of influence.' But, that's another story!

Sorry for the delay in replying BPH, I'm Orange County.

I have, Monster.coms employee break room had basically a full kitchen available to employees. I know this as I added circuits to it for more appliances. Heck we even ran a 208 30 amp circuit for a soft serve ice cream machine.

My point is we have to use the code as it is written or we have to change it.

We can not just say that 'no break room is a kitchen' as that is not what the NEC spells out.

Now that is something I can not argue, I agree with you.

You think you have commercial kitchen probs:
I work for a school system in VA and we're just going to the 05 code (we're a little slow here). We have about 75 schools and each has a kitchen. Each kitchen has from one to about ten receptacles mounted on boxes about 3 inches off the floor (and fed by a pipe in the slab) to plug in the various coolers and warmers. Now these all need to be GFIs. We're guessing the life of an "in use" cover to be about the third time they move the machine (they all have wheels to move for cleaning) and the life of the GFI to be the third mopping. GFI breakers are feasable in about 2/3 of the panels but the mops will still fill the receps with water and the compressors will still occasionally trip a GFI and ruin the milk or ice cream overnight. The AHJ has already told us he will not grant us an exception and allow single receps (like the residential exception) even for dedicated circuits, which these all are. We anticipate a nightmare.

What no pressure cleaners?
I would pipe those boxes up another 4 feet or so and put them on the wall to get them away from the water.

regarding the "in use" covers,

NEC 2008,406.8 (B)(1) exception. No need for "in use" covers.

You may exceed, but not diminish the code. Use the book to your advantage.

GFCI, Is still a great idea! Regardless of the cost. For the reasons you stated.

PS: I Love your music!

The boxes are in the middle of the kitchen area, no where near walls, that's why they're near the floor. The machines roll and are "parked" above the boxes.
The in use covers are an attempt to keep the mop water/ floor cleaner out of the GFIs.
(I wish it was my music ... I wouldn't have to do real work.