I want to be 100% on this and one inspector told one way and another says different. He said that commercial kitchen meant the kitchen was in the food business and so I only had to GFI within 6' of the sink of the company break room.
Now a different inspector says commercial means also a company break room and I need a single recepticle with a GFI overide for the microwave and everything, including the refrig. has to be GFI.
The guy buying the material says he's not and to take it up with the inspector. Working against a due date, appreciate any insight or help in an exact accepted interpretation of commercial or industrial kitchen.

I think the "what is a commercial kitchen" debate is a dishonest one, put forth by the same who try to say that the Constitution is a 'living' document, or want to debate the meaning of the word "is." One of the inspectors needs to grow up.

According to the 2008 NEC handbook - put out by the same folks who publish the NEC ... an employee breakroom is NOT a commercial kitchen.

The commentary is as follows:
"A location with a sink and a portable cooking appliance (e.g., cord-and-plug connected microwave oven) is not considered a commercial or institutional kitchen for the purposes of applying this requirement."
210.8 (B), pg 85.

this is from the 05 NEC code ( 210.8[B]2 )

just to highlight it.

Merci,Marc

Thanks for the input. In this situation, using the microwave for the example clouds the issue for me in going against the inspectors opinion that it is commercial because the microwave is mounted to hang underneath a cabinent so I supposed it might not be considered portable anymore.
It still doesn't match up to what I would consider a commercial kitchen, but it's hard to prove a point with an inspector who is firm in his opinion.
I think the confusion comes in for some in crossing the definition of Commercial Kitchen and Non-Dwelling unit.
From your reply, it sounds like you are in agreement, but every place I've gone to (about a half dozen) on a web search indicates that every recepticle should be GFI'd.

Can't you ever just answer the electrical question and leave your personal social views out of it?



The handbook is not the code regardless of who puts it out and an employee break room could be a kitchen if meets the definition that Marc posted.

Sometimes it's best to go back and review the ROP and ROC documents from the code cycle when the change took place.

The commercial kitchen gfci issue arose from documented deaths at restaurants and other similar facilities. Nowhere in the substantiation was there consideration for break rooms or office "kitchens".

However, the AHJ is always afforded the right to make their own interpretation which may result in a more conservative view than what was originally intended by the CMP.


A good axample would be Comment 2-14 Log #1545 of the 2001 ROC.

Sure it is, but that does not change what is printed in the actual adopted standard.

Sorry if you took my reply personally ... I have no way to know what lies in a mans' heart.

Yet, the "straw man" argument is a classic ... that is, setting up a condition that is easy to discredit, just so you can show your own prowess. A close relation would be the 'red herring,' making a completely irrelevant observation. Both are discussion techniques that seem to be favored by either the uninformed, or those just wishing to stir the pot.

Since the employee breakroom is not only clearly NOT a kitchen ... warming your coffee hardly qualifies as 'cooking,' and unwrapping your sandwich hardly qualifies as 'food preparation,' .... attempting the stretch the definition to cover breakrooms is clearly improper.

But that's just "my" opinion. Perhaps a better question is: What did the guy who wrote it really mean? That's where the commentary belongs. The NFPA is the 'author,' and the commentary is their explanation of what they meant. Not part of the code? Sure - but here that's pretty much a distinction without a difference.

Why? Well, let's carry this to the end ... a citation is issued, and a jury trial (guaranteed by the Constitution) takes place.
One side will say "Here are the words used" ... and we say the words mean "X"; and,
The other side will say "I wrote the words, and my meaning, my intent, was "Y".
Which way do you think the jury will vote? Whose argument will they buy?

Now, it's fair to ask why I consider this issue a non-starter. I do, because this issue has been quite prominent, in countless media, for nearly a decade. It's been re-iterated from the start that breakrooms were not commercial kitchens. An "inspector" who tries to assert that they are is either trying to substitute his opinion for that of the authors .... or is so uninformed as to bring his competence into question.



As I see it, the meanings of 'permanent' and 'cooking' are critical in understanding the code. This goes to the intended use of the space. A breakroom will typically not have anyone in it long enough to 'cook' anything. Even for a more elaborate company 'lunchroom' (one with an area where food is actually served), the 'kitchen' requirements would apply only to the cooking area, and not the entire room.

As an inspector I do not consider a break room with only a microwave oven a kitchen. The definition of a kitchen was relocated from 210.8(B) to Article 100 in the 2008 Code. The inspector should be familiar with the wording, and what is meant by permanent facilities for food preperation and cooking.

If anything the inspector should look at 210.8(B)(5) for any receptacles located within 6 feet of a sink.

If it isn't a kitchen and it isn't near a sink then no GFI.

Can you try again as I have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

No forget it, lets STICK TO THE NEC in this NEC forum.

Have you seen this break room?

No, you have not and neither have I.

The answer is found in the NEC definition, some break rooms do meet the NEC definition of kitchen.

Certainly I agree that most basic employee break rooms are not kitchens. But some are, some do have permanent provisions for cooking. Broaden your horizons you have not seen every break room.



You are guessing and casting your opinion out like it is a fact.

Unless you have seen the room in question you can not say if it is, or if it is not a kitchen to the NEC.

Bob

--microwave oven --

Had a few (chewing the fat) discussions with some inspectors regarding this.
Is a MW truly a "cooking" appliance?

Arguments in both directions, so we usualy leave the way we arrived... Unsure.

A microwave is a cooking appliance in the same way a dime is a screwdriver.

What if it is a combination microwave, convection oven, and toaster, still counter-top and/or cabinet hung...?

I would be inclined to say that IF those 3 are present as a single unit and PERMANENTLY installed, or the toaster and c-oven are PERMANETLY installed . then YES "permanent cooking facilities" is met.The cord is just a disconnect.

If the same device/s are setting on the counter and can be carried away. Then NO.

So then what hazard is created that would necessitate gfci protection for all receptacles installed in an office break room that has a combination microwave permanently installed verses one that is siting on the counter-top?

This logic is exactly opposite to what is required in dwelling kitchens. Only countertop receptacles are required to be gfci protected in dwelling kitchens, regardless as to what other equipment is installed, such as microwaves or hoods.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the section is makes no sense. The hazards that substantiate gfci protection are not created by the installation method of the cooking appliances...

I doubt you are ever going to see that convection oven in a break room.

No, I don't. But, I do see alot of sinks, refrigerators, toasters, microwaves, coffee makers, mixers, ect. All the typical stuff you would find in a dwelling kitchen but not a commercial kitchen (per definition).

So what makes the use of this equipment unsafe in a home but okay in an office?

If you are saying we should put GFCIs on the receptacles serving counter tops in break rooms I would not have a huge problem with the idea but I would be hard pressed to find a code section to justify it (>5' from a sink). Calling it a "commercial kitchen" and requiring GFCIs on every receptacle in there is really code creep.

Update: I put GFI's in the breakroom so that I wouldn't have a delay passing my inspection, which was important. The boss hasn't realized I cost him an extra $30 yet.
The inspector that was requiring it was filling in for the regular one who was doing office duty that week, so when I called for my final, the regular guy came out. I immediately asked him if he considered this a commercial kitchen and he just shook his head. He said that he would have a talk with the other guy and set him straight.
I appreciate all the responses and next time will stand up to the inspector and if he has a problem will let you guys work him over. Thanks.

Sounds like the perfect reason to go to the IAEI meetings. Then you can have things like this out with a room full of inspectors and hopefully they all walk away with the same opinion.

Where are you at in Florida, Wiking?

Hi HP, My responce was based on "Commercial kitchens".

Dwelling units are quite different.

How many homeowners have some one come in with a pressure washer on Sunday morning and wash the kitchen down?
Or have a wet slippery floor all day long?

I agree a break rm does not have these situations either.
In general, GFCI for ALL counter tops, No problem with that.

This 'debate' kind of reminds me of one at another forum, where some were trying to include closets under the definitions of "habitable space." Even the little cupboards under the stairs.

It seems to me that some folks just can't wait for the opportunity to expand the scope of their own personal bias. That such folks have almost never done anything productive, but have spent a lifetime finding fault with others' work, seems a constant.

Now, there are plenty of places I've never been ... but I've yet to enter a space and have trouble telling whether it was a breakroom, or a commercial kitchen.

To be fair, I've seen some of this 'game playing' on the customers' part. Like the guy who claimed his sloped room, with 50 seats and a big screen, was a 'customer viewing room,' and not a 'theater.' Nice try. (He still needed to have more parking - or remove some seats).

The prize for such 'creative' interpretation still goes to governmental officials who are trying to extend their fief. My favorite was the city that tried to apply their building codes to areas outside of the city, claiming the areas were 'within the sphere of influence.' But, that's another story!

Sorry for the delay in replying BPH, I'm Orange County.

I have, Monster.coms employee break room had basically a full kitchen available to employees. I know this as I added circuits to it for more appliances. Heck we even ran a 208 30 amp circuit for a soft serve ice cream machine.

My point is we have to use the code as it is written or we have to change it.

We can not just say that 'no break room is a kitchen' as that is not what the NEC spells out.

Now that is something I can not argue, I agree with you.

You think you have commercial kitchen probs:
I work for a school system in VA and we're just going to the 05 code (we're a little slow here). We have about 75 schools and each has a kitchen. Each kitchen has from one to about ten receptacles mounted on boxes about 3 inches off the floor (and fed by a pipe in the slab) to plug in the various coolers and warmers. Now these all need to be GFIs. We're guessing the life of an "in use" cover to be about the third time they move the machine (they all have wheels to move for cleaning) and the life of the GFI to be the third mopping. GFI breakers are feasable in about 2/3 of the panels but the mops will still fill the receps with water and the compressors will still occasionally trip a GFI and ruin the milk or ice cream overnight. The AHJ has already told us he will not grant us an exception and allow single receps (like the residential exception) even for dedicated circuits, which these all are. We anticipate a nightmare.

What no pressure cleaners?
I would pipe those boxes up another 4 feet or so and put them on the wall to get them away from the water.

regarding the "in use" covers,

NEC 2008,406.8 (B)(1) exception. No need for "in use" covers.

You may exceed, but not diminish the code. Use the book to your advantage.

GFCI, Is still a great idea! Regardless of the cost. For the reasons you stated.

PS: I Love your music!

The boxes are in the middle of the kitchen area, no where near walls, that's why they're near the floor. The machines roll and are "parked" above the boxes.
The in use covers are an attempt to keep the mop water/ floor cleaner out of the GFIs.
(I wish it was my music ... I wouldn't have to do real work.

The fast food joints I have worked in got around this "middle of the room" problem with pendant cords. Take a look at the "fry dump" at a Burger King. They are fryers and the dump station on a cart. (at least around here)

Unfortunately the "powers that be" design the kitchens. Us lowly electricians have no input; we just deal with the probs.

Sometime you have to fight the power. These fast food places don't make a lot of mistakes. My experience is 12 years old but they had their stuff so 16 year olds could move it around and hose out behind it. I seem to remember IEC(309?) connectors hanging on SO cord in kellum grips

Why are you having to CHANGE EXISTING equipment to a new code? What am I missing here?

RC