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FPE in Germany
by andey - 12/09/19 01:49 PM
Do you count seconds?
by gfretwell - 12/05/19 07:36 PM
"Esoteric" countries and their wiring practices?
by Texas_Ranger - 12/02/19 10:52 AM
Look at this mess...
by NORCAL - 11/15/19 10:21 PM
New in the Gallery:
FPE in Germany pt.2
FPE Breaker panel in germany
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Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: gfretwell] #175774 03/11/08 07:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 139
BPHgravity Offline
Where are you at in Florida, Wiking?

Bryan P. Holland, ECO.
Secretary - IAEI Florida Chapter
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: gfretwell] #175776 03/11/08 07:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
leland Offline
Hi HP, My responce was based on "Commercial kitchens".

Dwelling units are quite different.

How many homeowners have some one come in with a pressure washer on Sunday morning and wash the kitchen down?
Or have a wet slippery floor all day long?

I agree a break rm does not have these situations either.
In general, GFCI for ALL counter tops, No problem with that.

Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: gfretwell] #175780 03/11/08 09:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline
Cat Servant
This 'debate' kind of reminds me of one at another forum, where some were trying to include closets under the definitions of "habitable space." Even the little cupboards under the stairs.

It seems to me that some folks just can't wait for the opportunity to expand the scope of their own personal bias. That such folks have almost never done anything productive, but have spent a lifetime finding fault with others' work, seems a constant.

Now, there are plenty of places I've never been ... but I've yet to enter a space and have trouble telling whether it was a breakroom, or a commercial kitchen.

To be fair, I've seen some of this 'game playing' on the customers' part. Like the guy who claimed his sloped room, with 50 seats and a big screen, was a 'customer viewing room,' and not a 'theater.' Nice try. (He still needed to have more parking - or remove some seats).

The prize for such 'creative' interpretation still goes to governmental officials who are trying to extend their fief. My favorite was the city that tried to apply their building codes to areas outside of the city, claiming the areas were 'within the sphere of influence.' But, that's another story!

Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: BPHgravity] #176078 03/19/08 07:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32
wiking Offline OP
Junior Member
Sorry for the delay in replying BPH, I'm Orange County.

Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: gfretwell] #176182 03/24/08 03:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
iwire Offline
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I doubt you are ever going to see that convection oven in a break room.

I have, Monster.coms employee break room had basically a full kitchen available to employees. I know this as I added circuits to it for more appliances. Heck we even ran a 208 30 amp circuit for a soft serve ice cream machine.

My point is we have to use the code as it is written or we have to change it.

We can not just say that 'no break room is a kitchen' as that is not what the NEC spells out.

Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: BPHgravity] #176183 03/24/08 03:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
iwire Offline
Originally Posted by BPHgravity
The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the section is makes no sense. The hazards that substantiate gfci protection are not created by the installation method of the cooking appliances...

Now that is something I can not argue, I agree with you.

Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: wiking] #176262 03/27/08 05:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 329
Steve Miller Offline
You think you have commercial kitchen probs:
I work for a school system in VA and we're just going to the 05 code (we're a little slow here). We have about 75 schools and each has a kitchen. Each kitchen has from one to about ten receptacles mounted on boxes about 3 inches off the floor (and fed by a pipe in the slab) to plug in the various coolers and warmers. Now these all need to be GFIs. We're guessing the life of an "in use" cover to be about the third time they move the machine (they all have wheels to move for cleaning) and the life of the GFI to be the third mopping. GFI breakers are feasable in about 2/3 of the panels but the mops will still fill the receps with water and the compressors will still occasionally trip a GFI and ruin the milk or ice cream overnight. The AHJ has already told us he will not grant us an exception and allow single receps (like the residential exception) even for dedicated circuits, which these all are. We anticipate a nightmare.

Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: Steve Miller] #176265 03/27/08 08:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,414
gfretwell Offline
What no pressure cleaners? wink
I would pipe those boxes up another 4 feet or so and put them on the wall to get them away from the water.

Greg Fretwell
Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: gfretwell] #176266 03/27/08 08:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
leland Offline
regarding the "in use" covers,

NEC 2008,406.8 (B)(1) exception. No need for "in use" covers.

You may exceed, but not diminish the code. Use the book to your advantage.

GFCI, Is still a great idea! Regardless of the cost. For the reasons you stated.

PS: I Love your music!

Re: Commercial Kitchen GFI's [Re: leland] #176322 03/29/08 03:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 329
Steve Miller Offline
The boxes are in the middle of the kitchen area, no where near walls, that's why they're near the floor. The machines roll and are "parked" above the boxes.
The in use covers are an attempt to keep the mop water/ floor cleaner out of the GFIs.
(I wish it was my music ... I wouldn't have to do real work.

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