ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Opinions on ceiling light fitting problem with short wires-sink the rose?

I firmly believe that light fittings should simply plug in and out. There should be absolutely no need for a consumer to tackle wiring even simple choc blocks/boxes.

Systems like MK's link should be made standard on all light fittings and should be installed in place of ceiling roses. It would mean that consumers could simply buy a light fitting and safely install it in seconds.



Here's the socket that would be on the ceiling, includes physical load support for the light fitting preventing cable strain.




[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-28-2003).]

Hey, those two parallel slots make it look tempting to plug my electric flatiron in.....

Seriously though, you're right. I wish such a system were also for sale in this country.

There is something similar with track lighting, where you can insert spots of various sizes and even a 110-volt convenience outlet (need a ladder to go plug in your vacuum cleaner?)....
however those systems are not interchangeable between manufacturers I believe.

The problem is...not everyone has these types of ceiling roses installed. So it's all well that you have them in your CURRENT apartment...and when you move to a new flat, you're faced with the realization that the new place uses conventional ceiling boxes for the fixtures.

I wonder if the mounting plate is sold by itself for retrofitting a conventional box....or is it part of a complete kit?

Paul, I believe New England also uses the word "roundabout" to refer to a traffic circle...

P.S.: Milton Keynes -- sounds like it should be the name of some economist or something.....someone wearing a tweed jacket..

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 08-28-2003).]

djk,
I've used 100's of them connectors!.
We use them over here for fluorescent light fittings in Industrial installations.
Just means that if you have a really bad fault in a fitting, you can unplug it and take off the suspension chains and fix the fitting down on the floor, in relative comfort as opposed to wrestling with it while it is still hanging up.
We call them Pluglit connectors(and Sockets), because they are usually used for lighting installations.
What current rating do your socket/plugs of this type have in Ireland and the UK?.

You'll know that I'm not overly impressed by the wiring in Sweden, but in this case I think Sweden is a leader and that the rest of the world should follow.

A plug and socket system for ceiling lamps was introduced in 1915! It has been in use ever since, although today it is polarised and grounded.



When mounted there is a box behind (above) the socket, where the wiring is done. Even if you have to remove the socket to fit a luminaire that mounts flat onto the ceiling, you just have three wires. Simple and safe!

SvenNYC:
They're rated at 6 amps.

You'll also find small BS546 (roundpin) connectors used here and in the UK for lighting, often behind suspended ceilings. The setup doesn't look entirely unlike the swedish system above (only without the hook)

Installing lighting sockets here in an exsisting installation causes all sorts of complications under Irish regs though. If you're using BS546 or the above system to power switch controlled /dimmable free standing lamps you must install RCDs and the sockets must be shuttered and correctly polarised. Older installations here would not have RCDs on the lighting circuits.

The newer systems with the flat pins has the advantage of being able to support weight and are not "yankable" out.

We are also getting a lot of problems with DIY add-on lights, particularly security lighting & recessed spots, where people just add branches/spurs to exsisting lighting radials far exceeding the load that they were designed for. In some cases DIYers even over fuse the circuit to stop it tripping.

A circuit originally designed to handle about 600 W in total is suddenly handling 600 W per room.

The regs have addressed the problem by requiring more lighting circuits on the distribution panel (consumer unit)

Also, is it normal practice elsewhere to wire lights in groups to prevent complete darkness when a circuit blows/trips?

E.g. here it would be normal to have half a circuit upstairs and the other downstairs so that when a fuse/MCB trips perhaps one room upstairs and one downstairs will go dark rather than an entire floor.
The idea being to prevent accidents in sudden darkness

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-29-2003).]

C-H

Why does one of them have what looks like a male earthing pin and the other device has a female earthing contact? :???:

I see similar problems with people adding lights to older installations. It's not so many years ago that the typical British house was wired with just a single overhead light fixture in each room, and maybe one or fancy ornamental wall lights in the living room. These days, people want to add all sorts of extra mood lighting, and they usually just tap into whatever lighting circuit is nearest.

I've even seen a whole load of this stuff added to crumbling old 1930s wiring. I haven't seen wiring this old feeding wall receptacles in a long time, but it's survived in some older houses on the lighting circuits.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule here. Many smaller houses used to have just a single 5A lighting circuit which coped adequately with the "one light per room" type of system.

These days, it's normal to provide at least two lighting circuits, but in the average two-story house the most common arrangement seems to be one circuit for upstairs, one for downstairs.

I agree that the split method is far better, and I try to wire my lighting circuits that way.

Paul:

It's not unusual for people to just add a light circuit to any cables they can find either. I've seen mood lighting connected directly to a cooker circuit!!!! via a lightswitch, no RCD, no fused spur, nothing! Just a 45 amp MCB ..

DIY work is generally scary, particuarly when done by idiots!

They should do basic electrical safety as part of school! E.g. what an RCD actually does and why we have fuses!

Well, we learn that stuff in physics, even twice (once when we're 14 and once when we're 17 or 18, in final grade), but most people (sorry to say that, but especially girls) don't bother to listen 'cause they just say "but it's sooooo complicated, I can't understand that." So it doesn't help much.
Fixture wiring in Austria isn't exactly sophisticated but real simple. You've got just 2 or 3 wires hanging out of a hole in the ceiling to which you connect the fixture using choc blocks. Physicall the fixture is secured directly to the ceiling, that means, depending on the weight either some drywall screws driven into the lathes/drywall or anchors into the poured concrete ceiling or for pendant fixtures a solid hook driven into a joist or anchored to the concrete. Connections are usually covered by a plastic or metal cup which i always call "yoghurt can" 'cause it has exactly the shape of the small plastic cups in which they sell yoghurt here.
Worst idiots developed an easy way to remove the fixtures when moving, they just cut the wires and leave them bare or tape them up with band aid. I was _really_ surprised to find choc blocks on the wires when we moved into our last apartment!
In some cases I've also seen a receptacle fed through the ceiling light, that means 5 wires instead of 2 (switched phase, unswitched phase, neutral, and hot &neutral to receptacle). Luxurious older houses usually have 2 more wires for the butler bell, these can easily be distinguished because they're much thinner and have coloured cloth insulation (beige, orange, purple, green, brown, blue), compared to the black 220V wires.

Sven,
you know, these sockets aren't entirely sure about their identity.

Seriously, what looks like a female earthing contact is in reality an extra live contact.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-31-2003).]