Hi

I am after others views on what I did with a new ceiling light fitting, as I have been met with mixed views and basically had local guys try to scare me into using their services.

By the way, I am in the UK, and the lighting system is a Loop (4 earths, live, neutral, 3 black)) system.

Basically, I bought a new fitting which should sit flush with the ceiling. Well, when I got round to preparing to put it up, it became obvious that the rose (from which a cable was fed through) would be an obstruction, so I did a bit of research on the net, and found that the most common practice is to get cable connectors, and replace the rose with this method of wiring. The problem I came into was that the wires have been cut VERY short, and therefore proving extremely difficult to get the connections secure. So to cut to the chase, I thought of enlarging the hole in the ceiling, and just pushing the rose through the hole (the light fitting is quite large and would conceal any hole).

As I see it, all the wiring is right, and contained within its own unit, with no chance of being moved or disturbed, and to describe it as basically as possible, I am only changing the 'end' of what fitting/cable was already there (hanging down from the ceiling), because the rest of the new light design is purely cosmetic, and therefore unaffective to the actual wiring of the unit.

And lastly, assuming that placing a rose inside the ceiling (they do it with junction boxes, right?) is acceptable and safe, I was wondering, as the rose has all the earth wires connected to it, do I still need to fit an earth cable onto the light fitting itself?

Many thanks in advance for your opinions and advice!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-01-2003).]

Maybe someone can give you a opinion on your situation, but I would like to stress that questions of a DIY nature are beyond the scope of this Forum.

Bill Addiss

What you seem to be proposing isn't really to be recommended.

The best solution to this problem would be to get into the void above the ceiling and install a proper junction box in place of the existing ceiling rose. Then all you need is to connect from that box to your new light fitting.

You should certainly run an earth wire to the new light fitting, and if it is a type with a metal back plate, then it should have a terminal for the earth wire which connects to that metalwork.

IEE Wiring Regs. have required an earth terminal at all lighting points since 1966.

PaulUK - thanks for your words. After speaking to a few people I am phoning an elctrician up today, as although I am sure what I have done is fine, I have doubts in the back of my mind, so its better to be safe than sorry imo.

Payl,
JB is not always an option. If placing it in the ceiling void renders it inaccessible, then it would contravene UK wiring regulations.
The problem that the chap faces is often solved, as he says, by stuffing open type pvc connectors up through the small aperture in the ceiling. This is unacceptable and your method would be the better option.
However, Klik (I think) manufacture a replacement rose with a suspension bar which might do the trick.
In any event,the lighting manufacturers should take a lead in ensuring that their fittings can be easily connected to the fixed wiring. Unfortunately this does not appear to be the case.

Light fixtures seems to be a particular area where wiring is poor in this country. I've seen the "choc-block shoved up through the ceiling" method far too many times.

I was assuming that a j-box would be accessible in the void in a domestic situation, either by virtue of it being in the attic or being readily accessible from above by simply lifting a floorboard.-

well, the electrician came, and charged me £80 in total to do it properly.

I know everybody 'should'get a receipt (which I have got) but I read somewhere about 'Major Work Certificte' and 'Minor Work Certificate'. Should I have gotten something like this as well as the receipt (Which says what he did)?

What I find strange is that people say about that I shouldnt have put a rose 'inside' the ceiling, but thinking about junction boxes, a rose is wired the same, so what is the difference? Surely a cosmetic thing only, as the rose is a 'visible' junction box (in theory).

Just a last bit of info - when I put the rose into the ceiling, it was as you would see it normally - encased with a cord coming from it to connect to the bulb socket, only insted of being screwed onto the ceiling, I widened the hole, and pushed the rose through.

Oh well, you live and learn. Many thanks for your comments. I am sure my 'unique' ideas/methods and desire to understand this crazy electric stuff will bring me back here very soon.

Again, thanks!



[This message has been edited by mkdaiv (edited 08-28-2003).]

Hmm... Looks like it's time for me to consider increasing my rates!

Glad you got it sorted out properly.

yeah me too!! sounds like you live in London???

your right there isn't much differance between a rose and a joint box.. but it's all about doing the job right.

Profile says Milton Keynes.

America has Minnesota -- Land of 10,000 Lakes.

We have Milton Keynes, city of 10,000 roundabouts!

(For our American friends, roundabout = traffic circle.)

I firmly believe that light fittings should simply plug in and out. There should be absolutely no need for a consumer to tackle wiring even simple choc blocks/boxes.

Systems like MK's link should be made standard on all light fittings and should be installed in place of ceiling roses. It would mean that consumers could simply buy a light fitting and safely install it in seconds.



Here's the socket that would be on the ceiling, includes physical load support for the light fitting preventing cable strain.




[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-28-2003).]

Hey, those two parallel slots make it look tempting to plug my electric flatiron in.....

Seriously though, you're right. I wish such a system were also for sale in this country.

There is something similar with track lighting, where you can insert spots of various sizes and even a 110-volt convenience outlet (need a ladder to go plug in your vacuum cleaner?)....
however those systems are not interchangeable between manufacturers I believe.

The problem is...not everyone has these types of ceiling roses installed. So it's all well that you have them in your CURRENT apartment...and when you move to a new flat, you're faced with the realization that the new place uses conventional ceiling boxes for the fixtures.

I wonder if the mounting plate is sold by itself for retrofitting a conventional box....or is it part of a complete kit?

Paul, I believe New England also uses the word "roundabout" to refer to a traffic circle...

P.S.: Milton Keynes -- sounds like it should be the name of some economist or something.....someone wearing a tweed jacket..

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 08-28-2003).]

djk,
I've used 100's of them connectors!.
We use them over here for fluorescent light fittings in Industrial installations.
Just means that if you have a really bad fault in a fitting, you can unplug it and take off the suspension chains and fix the fitting down on the floor, in relative comfort as opposed to wrestling with it while it is still hanging up.
We call them Pluglit connectors(and Sockets), because they are usually used for lighting installations.
What current rating do your socket/plugs of this type have in Ireland and the UK?.

You'll know that I'm not overly impressed by the wiring in Sweden, but in this case I think Sweden is a leader and that the rest of the world should follow.

A plug and socket system for ceiling lamps was introduced in 1915! It has been in use ever since, although today it is polarised and grounded.



When mounted there is a box behind (above) the socket, where the wiring is done. Even if you have to remove the socket to fit a luminaire that mounts flat onto the ceiling, you just have three wires. Simple and safe!

SvenNYC:
They're rated at 6 amps.

You'll also find small BS546 (roundpin) connectors used here and in the UK for lighting, often behind suspended ceilings. The setup doesn't look entirely unlike the swedish system above (only without the hook)

Installing lighting sockets here in an exsisting installation causes all sorts of complications under Irish regs though. If you're using BS546 or the above system to power switch controlled /dimmable free standing lamps you must install RCDs and the sockets must be shuttered and correctly polarised. Older installations here would not have RCDs on the lighting circuits.

The newer systems with the flat pins has the advantage of being able to support weight and are not "yankable" out.

We are also getting a lot of problems with DIY add-on lights, particularly security lighting & recessed spots, where people just add branches/spurs to exsisting lighting radials far exceeding the load that they were designed for. In some cases DIYers even over fuse the circuit to stop it tripping.

A circuit originally designed to handle about 600 W in total is suddenly handling 600 W per room.

The regs have addressed the problem by requiring more lighting circuits on the distribution panel (consumer unit)

Also, is it normal practice elsewhere to wire lights in groups to prevent complete darkness when a circuit blows/trips?

E.g. here it would be normal to have half a circuit upstairs and the other downstairs so that when a fuse/MCB trips perhaps one room upstairs and one downstairs will go dark rather than an entire floor.
The idea being to prevent accidents in sudden darkness

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-29-2003).]

C-H

Why does one of them have what looks like a male earthing pin and the other device has a female earthing contact? :???:

I see similar problems with people adding lights to older installations. It's not so many years ago that the typical British house was wired with just a single overhead light fixture in each room, and maybe one or fancy ornamental wall lights in the living room. These days, people want to add all sorts of extra mood lighting, and they usually just tap into whatever lighting circuit is nearest.

I've even seen a whole load of this stuff added to crumbling old 1930s wiring. I haven't seen wiring this old feeding wall receptacles in a long time, but it's survived in some older houses on the lighting circuits.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the exception rather than the rule here. Many smaller houses used to have just a single 5A lighting circuit which coped adequately with the "one light per room" type of system.

These days, it's normal to provide at least two lighting circuits, but in the average two-story house the most common arrangement seems to be one circuit for upstairs, one for downstairs.

I agree that the split method is far better, and I try to wire my lighting circuits that way.

Paul:

It's not unusual for people to just add a light circuit to any cables they can find either. I've seen mood lighting connected directly to a cooker circuit!!!! via a lightswitch, no RCD, no fused spur, nothing! Just a 45 amp MCB ..

DIY work is generally scary, particuarly when done by idiots!

They should do basic electrical safety as part of school! E.g. what an RCD actually does and why we have fuses!

Well, we learn that stuff in physics, even twice (once when we're 14 and once when we're 17 or 18, in final grade), but most people (sorry to say that, but especially girls) don't bother to listen 'cause they just say "but it's sooooo complicated, I can't understand that." So it doesn't help much.
Fixture wiring in Austria isn't exactly sophisticated but real simple. You've got just 2 or 3 wires hanging out of a hole in the ceiling to which you connect the fixture using choc blocks. Physicall the fixture is secured directly to the ceiling, that means, depending on the weight either some drywall screws driven into the lathes/drywall or anchors into the poured concrete ceiling or for pendant fixtures a solid hook driven into a joist or anchored to the concrete. Connections are usually covered by a plastic or metal cup which i always call "yoghurt can" 'cause it has exactly the shape of the small plastic cups in which they sell yoghurt here.
Worst idiots developed an easy way to remove the fixtures when moving, they just cut the wires and leave them bare or tape them up with band aid. I was _really_ surprised to find choc blocks on the wires when we moved into our last apartment!
In some cases I've also seen a receptacle fed through the ceiling light, that means 5 wires instead of 2 (switched phase, unswitched phase, neutral, and hot &neutral to receptacle). Luxurious older houses usually have 2 more wires for the butler bell, these can easily be distinguished because they're much thinner and have coloured cloth insulation (beige, orange, purple, green, brown, blue), compared to the black 220V wires.

Sven,
you know, these sockets aren't entirely sure about their identity.

Seriously, what looks like a female earthing contact is in reality an extra live contact.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-31-2003).]

I don't recall coming across that before, but I've seen 1.0mm cable for extra lights tapped straight off a 30A ring circuit!

Paul:

This guy had gone into the attic found the cooker cable, cut it in half put in a junction box feeding a switch (wired with orange garden flex!) back to another junction box feeding 4 150W 12V SELV transformers.. feeding 150W loads via lawnmower cable at 12V.. the LV cables were nice n' warm!

Oh yeah... : it was a brass switch wired to a cooker circuit with 2 core garden flex

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 09-02-2003).]

On the 12V side, so many people seem to have the idea that "It's only 12 volts, so it doesn't matter."

They should include a warning on those lamps. Many people seem to think they can get away with any kind of cable on the SELV 12/24V side. Those low voltages can really warm up a cable! Not to mention if the cable offers too much resistance that you'll blow your transformer prematurely.