ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Photos for General Discussion SE Cable Behind Window Shutter

(submitted via Joe Tedesco)

I cannot tell from the pic if those are real shutters, or simply decorations. Do they operate?

Looks like a screw in each corner of the shutter to me so I doubt they operate. Not sure why its poor workmanship though? Because it goes behind a fixed shutter??

Personally,
I'd like to see that service in some sort of conduit.
I'm not sure what SE cable is like around sun-light, but even just for neatness.

Would this apply:

Art 230.54(C) Service Heads Above Service-Drop Attachment. Service heads and goosenecks in service-entrance cables shall be located above the point of attachment of the service-drop conductors to the building or other structure.

Exception: Where it is impracticable to locate the service head above the point of attachment, the service head location shall be permitted not further than 600 mm (24 in.) from the point of attachment.

From the photo, I can't tell if they "had to" run the point of attaachment right up against the eve of the roof.

The question one of the home inspectors asked was if that drop is rubbing the aluminum facia.

Looks like clearance for the drop from the upstairs window wouldn't be adequate if it was moved to avoid the shutter. (Art. 230-9 1999 NEC)

Also, clearance from the facia may be in violation of 230-24(a) {my extraced quote follows}:

"...The vertical clearance above the roof level shall be maintained for a distance of not less than 3 ft (914mm) in all directions from the edge of the roof. (my bold added)

I realize (before the flaming starts,) that the reference in 230-24(a) is above but it also says in all directions from the edge of the roof. Another example of doublespeak in the Code, perhaps? In any event, it looks to be too close to the facia.

Reading further, Art 230-26, Point of Attachment seems to apply too.

Good call on the red tag. But I wonder what would be the best way to correct this, short of relocating the meter?

(edited to add smiley)

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 06-21-2005).]

mxslick,
There's no flaming here, mate.

Just a reminder here....everything before the meter is usually regulated by the PoCo's rules, and not the NEC. There are dramatic differences in what those rules are between differing utilities and areas. PoCo rules are also usually much more detailed than the NEC.

As an example, here the use of SE like this is simply not allowed; with a weatherhead like this, you would have to use a mast through the roof eave. Or, you would have three attachment points- one for each conductor.
Also in this area, the service drop is required to be within three feet of the corner of the building.
I am told that other areas have SE as the norm; recently we had another thread of some really ugly such services.

Looking at the pic again- is it possible the meter has already been moved, to move the drop away from that upper window? And- to play devils' advocate- isn't it kind of hard to touch the SE when it is protected by that fake shutter?

It may be protected by that shutter, but in the larger picture isn't it wiser to just fail the guy to discourage further creative innovation along the same lines?

On a different subject- I've never seen exposed SE like that out here in the west, and that's a good thing- because it's Ug-leeee! Sure are some pretty houses back east, though. Pretty till you get to the meter side of the house

Trumpy:


That's what I love about this site, we all can share our opinion without worry. My remark was tongue-in-cheek as I work with someone who would bash me over the head with the literal interpretation of that reference.

In fact we argued (amicably) today over what constitutes a "dedicated circuit." I'll start a thread with the gist of that debate...

Thanks!!

I see no problem with this. The only question I have is that the service looks about 25 years old or so. Why was it being inspected now? This is not above the roof so throw that out, point of attachment is covered by the exception so no red tag there, as for workmanship that is strictly a matter of opinion (and should be removed from the NEC) and I don't agree with yours. I bet the service was there long before the shutters were added.

lol. LOTS of exposed SE here in Arkansas. 90% of it is still live too..

Are you guys kidding? If any of my techs did a job like that they would be FIRED on the spot.
What happened to quality workmanship?

To give you guys an update, I knew there would be trouble when three guys were waiting for me when I showed up. Two of which did not speak English. Reading between the lines, I don't belive the contractor did this job, but the other two guys did and I mentions that you must supervised the the work if you are not present. I would not want this on my house, would you? The red tag stands until it is moved over.

Truthfully, I wouldn't want a neatly done job of that stuff on the side of my house.

"Are you guys kidding? If any of my techs did a job like that they would be FIRED on the spot.
What happened to quality workmanship?"

I agree, however here in the east, we have million dollar homes, with service cable, craftsman, are hard to find in this area.

Fast, and cheap seems to be the key, a few custom homes, were bulit near my home last year, they all have service cable, and they all look like hit and run, nothing neat or running stright, duct seal thrown on the connector, screws loose on the cable clamps, entry hole not sealed, meter pans tilting to the right or left.
I was talking to man that took care of the builders punch list, he told me the EC was a new guy that just got his lic., it appears there are many entering the business with poor skills, and an additude that workmanship has little value, and this tends to reflect on all the EC's that are doing first class work, we are all being judged on what is seen, slopy installations.

From Jim M

Is it was tagged for poor workmanship, why will moving it over solve that?. The poor workmanship results because it is behind the shutter?? or too close to the window.

That third pic is just garbage... Thats bad workmanship.

"Two of which did not speak English."
Thats not a reason for a red tag! That could be a law suit by the ACLU.

If you're calling 230.9A , I offer the following from the commentary on it.

If you're hitting it for under the shutter / within the finish.... As service conductors inside the building, you would be setting a precident (in your area) to not allow it at all. That would set you up for the debate, that it is allowed other places.

I was asked about this picture in the chat room last night. Other than I don't use SE, and its not allowed here... I can't find much wrong with the pictures.

The picture from Jim is a re-post from another thread, prompted by comment in the same chat session as e57 mentioned.
It's there as an example of truly bad workmanship.

(I've also got some pics of beautiful work done by people that spoke no English).

After seeing the new pic, I hope Mr Rossi now appreciates how blest he is to never have seen truly bad workmanship.

I don't believe he meant anything improper by commenting that two of the workers spoke no English. I think what he was saying, in a 'shorthand' manner, is that the contractor, and his crew, gave ample reason to doubt their qualifications, and shouldn't be working with electricity at all.

I don't want to get off-track here, into emotional areas- but the line has to be drawn somewhere. It is kind of hard to look out for the public safety when those you must communicat with are either unable or unwilling to make the least effort to learn the rules, let alone follow them. I translate "No Habla" as "I don't need no stinking NEC."

I personally would have done this job in 2" pvc. Running the SEC behind the shutter is in my opinion poor workmanship. The proper way (IMO) would have been to run the SEC (or p.v.c.), above the window so that it is "out of reach" according to NEC requirements.

"Out of reach", as a code requirement, depending on how you read it, only applies to the over-head drop, and unprotected conductors outside of the sheath, or conduit.

I run next to windows all of the time, Sometimes its the best way to get a strap on my RMC. (I would also be allowed to run that entire service within the walls...)

Although I don't see anything illegal about it except maybe the 3 foot clearance rule, I agree that it is poor workmanship. Having SE cable under the shutters is just opening it up to all sorts of problems down the road... removing shutters ,new window trim etc.

It looks like the guy was just trying to hide the wire and is why he went 3 or 4 feet out of the way to get to the shutter in the first place.

I personally would have went into the back of the meter with the load side and then ran 2" IMC straight up to the weather head through the roof and told homeowner to paint it white

[This message has been edited by Rich R (edited 06-26-2005).]

As an outsider looking in, why does any of this gawky stuff need to be outside the building anyway? It spoils the aesthetics of the houses. I've seen tiny 'senders' 4" square x 1" thick on the house eaves in Europe, that the POCO can interogate for billing without even getting out of their vehicle. The 'real' meter is inside for the consumer's use.
Alan

Alan, the common thought in the USA is to have the disconnect outside, where the fire department can get to it....something about water from the hoses and electrical hazard....

Other than poor quality of work, this service will meet code, depending on a few issues.
Point of attachment below the weatherhead - but the exception most likey permits it in this instance.
The SE behind the shutter is not great, but it is not in the "hollow" of construction, and can be installed this way.
Remember the NEC is the MINIMUM and sometimes stuff like this will pass.

Do you really expect the bad quality contractor/installer is spending his free time studying or visiting this website???

" don't want to get off-track here, into emotional areas- but the line has to be drawn somewhere. It is kind of hard to look out for the public safety when those you must communicat with are either unable or unwilling to make the least effort to learn the rules, let alone follow them. I translate "No Habla" as "I don't need no stinking NEC.""

I agree that if the men do not speak english, most likely they do not even know the NEC exists, let alone how to read it. So, yes that contractor would (based on our licensing law) would be required to be present to supervise this work.

Pierre

I would have to guess that this is the side of the house (with the meter, gable of the roof, and fence coming off the house). I'd also guess that the SEC came first and the shutter came later. Most houses in my area don't get shutters on the side of the house. I think the electrician "assumed" (bad word) that there wasn't going to be a shutter on this window. I can't believe he'd take the time to remove and reinstall a shutter to run the service drop behind it.

It's mostly a safety issue. You really don't want power wiring that has no overcurrent protection (fuses or circuit breakers) inside a house or building. If a short ever happened, it would get quite hot and maybe start a fire if it were inside the wall. Less likely to cause a fire if it's outside on the wall. Best solution is to have an underground feed. My house has the underground feed enter the meter in the basement, then to the service equipment beneath the meter, which consists of a pair of 100A fuses. That feeds a subpanel elsewhere in the house.

Another concern is the power company wanting to know that someone isn't cheating on the electric bill by taping into the unmetered feed. The feed being on the outside of the house makes it easier to spot any cheating.

spanish...

I hear its printed in french too.

This is a common misconception. There is no NEC requirement that mandates all disconnects outside a buiding.

Thank you Scott. I did not cite the NEC, as the requirement is not there. It is in our local ordinance and PoCo specs, however.

It's a good point, however. It is not enough to only know the NEC, or only your trade....