ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Admin 5
Recent Posts
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by Potseal. 04/23/17 07:18 PM
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
How do you find a good employee?
by HotLine1. 04/22/17 10:44 AM
Electrode boilers question
by SteveFehr. 04/21/17 08:32 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,498 Are you busy
169,165 Re: Forum
162,510 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 58 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#48487 - 02/13/05 07:01 PM Conserving wire?  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
It seems that when wiring a new residence, if you feed the homeruns to the device boxes closest to the panel, less cable could be used.
However, the more I think about it, I don't think it is true.
What do you guys think?


Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#48488 - 02/13/05 08:34 PM Re: Conserving wire?  
Dave55  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 697
Crystal Lake, Illinois, USA
I wouldn't expect to save any cable by running to the farthest device!

Dave


#48489 - 02/13/05 11:16 PM Re: Conserving wire?  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Obviously, homerunning the farthest device would waste wire if you then had to back track to feed devices that you passed over on the way.
I'm just not convinced that, say, starting several different branch runs from the room closest to the panel will result in less wire used overall.


#48490 - 02/14/05 12:43 AM Re: Conserving wire?  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
I know this is a point of contention with those who feel strongly about the use of 2-wire circuits, but 3 and 4-wire ciruits are a savings in wire in themselves.

I try to maximize the use of them, and shed conductors of the circuit at nearest opprotunity, or best suitable location. Like some circuits are just stanard in method now. GB/DW is a 3-wire to a box under the sink. Kitchen Counters = another 3-wire, GFI the start of each. Baths are the same.... 3-wire for vanity recept GFI, and another appropriate 20A on the other.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#48491 - 02/14/05 03:23 AM Re: Conserving wire?  
proguy  Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4
Orange county CA
I also run a ton of three wire. My panel looks verrry pretty. It has alternating colors red-black-red-black. The only sitiuation is for GFI breakers and arc faults. Which brings up a ? I heard from a fellow electrician that you could share a nuetral with arc's. I told him that I never heard that before and went on my way.

What do you guys think about multiple sub panels? Are they cost effective? What size subs do you run for $4k sq/ft homes?


#48492 - 02/14/05 08:51 AM Re: Conserving wire?  
Redsy  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
I also use multi-wire ckts. as needed.
But I am trying to reason through whether or not wire is saved by by the method described above. At first thought, it appears so. But the more I think about I don't believe so.


#48493 - 02/14/05 10:02 AM Re: Conserving wire?  
frankft  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39
Maine
210.4 says that when a multiwire circuit supplies the same yoke that it needs to be on a 2 pole breaker. My question is say with the 2 SA branch circuits do you put them on a 2 pole breaker just to be safe? It also seems that if somebody else at a later time goes to work on the panel, that they may notice quicker that the are mulitwire circuits in the panel and know not to start rearanging the circuits without thinking about the phasing first.


Thats how we do it up in the woods!

#48494 - 02/14/05 10:11 AM Re: Conserving wire?  
detubbs  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 56
PA
if i remember right our inspector allows us to put them on single pole breakers as long as the breakers are on the same phase, so there's no possibility of 240v through a short to a device


Scott

#48495 - 02/14/05 10:27 AM Re: Conserving wire?  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote
if i remember right our inspector allows us to put them on single pole breakers as long as the breakers are on the same phase, so there's no possibility of 240v through a short to a device


I hope you are not remembering correctly.

Each leg of a multiwire branch circuit must be connected to different buses in the panel.

Any other way can result in overloading the neutral.

Quote
Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.


In order for the ungrounded conductors to have a 'voltage between them' they must be on opposite panel busses.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-14-2005).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

#48496 - 02/14/05 10:35 AM Re: Conserving wire?  
Electricmanscott  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,457
Holden, MA USA
detubbs, dude you are scaring me. [Linked Image] First off Bob pointed out the danger. Second your inspector should go back to school or give up inspecting. Third do you always let the inspector instruct you (incorrectly) on how to do your work? Now for the original question. I din't see a meaningfull savings of wire in the average home. One way or another all the outlets on the circuit have to get wired together. I don't see how starting here vs there makes a difference.


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
Radar
Radar
Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 349
Joined: April 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.018s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8162 MB (Peak: 0.9897 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-24 03:37:25 UTC