ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
Video: Inventor of the GFCI self-testing shocks
by Bill Addiss. 01/17/18 11:11 PM
FPE in Germany
by HotLine1. 01/17/18 07:07 PM
VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs
by LongRunner. 01/17/18 10:32 AM
Fujifilm Recalls Power Adapter Wall Plugs
by Admin. 01/16/18 07:04 PM
Air Compressor feeder conductor sizing
by Potseal. 01/15/18 09:08 PM
New in the Gallery:
Housebilding DIY wiring
SE cable question
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 61 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Conserving wire? #48487
02/13/05 06:01 PM
02/13/05 06:01 PM
R
Redsy  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
It seems that when wiring a new residence, if you feed the homeruns to the device boxes closest to the panel, less cable could be used.
However, the more I think about it, I don't think it is true.
What do you guys think?

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: Conserving wire? #48488
02/13/05 07:34 PM
02/13/05 07:34 PM
D
Dave55  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 697
Crystal Lake, Illinois, USA
I wouldn't expect to save any cable by running to the farthest device!

Dave

Re: Conserving wire? #48489
02/13/05 10:16 PM
02/13/05 10:16 PM
R
Redsy  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
Obviously, homerunning the farthest device would waste wire if you then had to back track to feed devices that you passed over on the way.
I'm just not convinced that, say, starting several different branch runs from the room closest to the panel will result in less wire used overall.

Re: Conserving wire? #48490
02/13/05 11:43 PM
02/13/05 11:43 PM
E
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
I know this is a point of contention with those who feel strongly about the use of 2-wire circuits, but 3 and 4-wire ciruits are a savings in wire in themselves.

I try to maximize the use of them, and shed conductors of the circuit at nearest opprotunity, or best suitable location. Like some circuits are just stanard in method now. GB/DW is a 3-wire to a box under the sink. Kitchen Counters = another 3-wire, GFI the start of each. Baths are the same.... 3-wire for vanity recept GFI, and another appropriate 20A on the other.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Conserving wire? #48491
02/14/05 02:23 AM
02/14/05 02:23 AM
P
proguy  Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4
Orange county CA
I also run a ton of three wire. My panel looks verrry pretty. It has alternating colors red-black-red-black. The only sitiuation is for GFI breakers and arc faults. Which brings up a ? I heard from a fellow electrician that you could share a nuetral with arc's. I told him that I never heard that before and went on my way.

What do you guys think about multiple sub panels? Are they cost effective? What size subs do you run for $4k sq/ft homes?

Re: Conserving wire? #48492
02/14/05 07:51 AM
02/14/05 07:51 AM
R
Redsy  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
Bucks County PA
I also use multi-wire ckts. as needed.
But I am trying to reason through whether or not wire is saved by by the method described above. At first thought, it appears so. But the more I think about I don't believe so.

Re: Conserving wire? #48493
02/14/05 09:02 AM
02/14/05 09:02 AM
F
frankft  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39
Maine
210.4 says that when a multiwire circuit supplies the same yoke that it needs to be on a 2 pole breaker. My question is say with the 2 SA branch circuits do you put them on a 2 pole breaker just to be safe? It also seems that if somebody else at a later time goes to work on the panel, that they may notice quicker that the are mulitwire circuits in the panel and know not to start rearanging the circuits without thinking about the phasing first.


Thats how we do it up in the woods!
Re: Conserving wire? #48494
02/14/05 09:11 AM
02/14/05 09:11 AM
D
detubbs  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 56
PA
if i remember right our inspector allows us to put them on single pole breakers as long as the breakers are on the same phase, so there's no possibility of 240v through a short to a device


Scott
Re: Conserving wire? #48495
02/14/05 09:27 AM
02/14/05 09:27 AM
I
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
Quote
if i remember right our inspector allows us to put them on single pole breakers as long as the breakers are on the same phase, so there's no possibility of 240v through a short to a device


I hope you are not remembering correctly.

Each leg of a multiwire branch circuit must be connected to different buses in the panel.

Any other way can result in overloading the neutral.

Quote
Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal voltage between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of the system.


In order for the ungrounded conductors to have a 'voltage between them' they must be on opposite panel busses.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-14-2005).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Conserving wire? #48496
02/14/05 09:35 AM
02/14/05 09:35 AM
E
Electricmanscott  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,457
Holden, MA USA
detubbs, dude you are scaring me. [Linked Image] First off Bob pointed out the danger. Second your inspector should go back to school or give up inspecting. Third do you always let the inspector instruct you (incorrectly) on how to do your work? Now for the original question. I din't see a meaningfull savings of wire in the average home. One way or another all the outlets on the circuit have to get wired together. I don't see how starting here vs there makes a difference.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
Vlado
Vlado
Croatia
Posts: 28
Joined: February 2011
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 20
sparky 20
Potseal 13
Popular Topics(Views)
243,539 Are you busy
180,341 Re: Forum
170,831 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.018s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 1.0233 MB (Peak: 1.2008 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-01-18 21:51:18 UTC