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#123126 - 03/01/06 08:42 AM How Many Recps are Required?  
electure  Offline


Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,260
Fullerton, CA USA
Quote
Here are some pics of a rather interesting, very upscale residential kitchen.
For this post, let's ignore the island /bar....I promise we will return to it in another thread!

The main counter measures just over 12 ft long (not including the ovens). As you can see, it is interrupted by a six-burner stove, and the upper cabinets actually come all the way down to the counter. The 2nd pic even shows how thw 12" of counter in front of the cabinets must be kept clear in order for the drawers to open.

So, as I see it, the only space requiring a receptacle is the 39" part at the end! 12 ft counter = ONE receptacle?
Also....with that little counter space, does the "two circuits for small appliances" part of the code make any sense?


Renosteinke


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


Tools for Electricians:

#123127 - 03/01/06 10:58 AM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
Larry Fine  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 693
Richmond, VA
I guess that 39" space will (should) have two recep's, one on each circuit.


Larry Fine
Fine Electric Co.
fineelectricco.com

#123128 - 03/01/06 12:33 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
Alan Nadon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 399
Elkhart, IN. USA
In my opinion the counter space in front of the drawers, even though they have to be kept clear, are counter space and would have to be counted for the receptacles.
Alan--


Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

#123129 - 03/01/06 03:02 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
John Crighton  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 177
Southern California
Alan, I agree. That means that the counter area in front of the other set of drawers needs to have a receptacle, too. Speaking of which...

Isn't that a receptacle just above the right end of the stove? Whatever gets plugged in there, the cord will drape conveniently across the burners! Or maybe it's for a wall-mount phone ;-)

Upscale? Well, the cabinets are nice.


#123130 - 03/01/06 03:04 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
mxslick  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 803
Atomic City, ID USA
That setup gets my vote for ugliest design!! Upscale doesn't always equal practical-or good taste! [Linked Image]

But I would be inclined to agree with Larry, two recpts, two circuits in the open space.

I would be inclined to differ with Alan, though. Anything placed in front of those drawers would end up on the floor sure as shootin. But I guess for Code interpretation, the argument would center on whether that space is "usable"?


Stupid should be painful.

#123131 - 03/01/06 10:19 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
ON either side of the stove there is about 10" of clear counter before the cabinets begin. Odlly enough, the receptacles that were there were replaced with blank covers- at the homeowners' request.
I couldn't find any requirement that they remain.


#123132 - 03/02/06 09:17 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Do they count a counter top garage as counter space? Or do they count the first receptacle to be 2' from the garage? I don't have a certain book here with me, it is in my office. I think there was a diagram of it in there. Can they really put an appliance in front of the drawer that opens up? Just some thoughts.


#123133 - 03/02/06 09:20 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Harold, that is why I posted a pic with the drawers extended...as I see it, the drawers are not in any way an "appliance garage."

Though..for the sake of this discussion..what if there were an appliance garage? Would any receptacles inside the garage count toward required receptacles?


#123134 - 03/02/06 09:48 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
georgestolz  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 91
Fort Collins, CO, US
The NEC calls for receptacles to be installed at "Wall Counter Spaces." Only the 39" section mentioned above qualifies, IMO.

There's no requirement for "Cabinet-backed counter spaces." [Linked Image]


-George

#123135 - 03/02/06 10:06 PM Re: How Many Recps are Required?  
georgestolz  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 91
Fort Collins, CO, US
John,
Quote
(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.

By the words of the NEC, a receptacle inside an appliance garage is not required.

Looking over the ROP's from 2005, though, CMP-2 contradicts itself.
Quote
Panel statement in Proposal 2-220 to make appliance garages like sinks and ranges, as breaks in countertop:
The panel does not agree that appliance garages generally split the countertops into separate spaces. The face of the appliance garage
does not typically extend to the outer edge of the countertop; a work surface is available directly in front of the appliance garage that is
contiguous with the counters on either side of the appliance garage.

But then they rejected a proposal to make appliance garages part of the countertop!
Quote
Panel statement in response to Proposal 2-224:
Receptacle outlets within appliance garages may be provided as a convenience to the user to allow particular appliances to remain
plugged in while they are stored. They may not be readily accessible for the use of other small appliances such as handheld mixers or
electric carving knives that may not be stored in the garage. GFCI protection is required for all receptacles that serve countertop spaces.

They seem to consider the receptacle inside the garage as needing GFI protection, and serving the countertop. But it's not allowed to be considered serving the countertop.

If they can't get it right, how are we supposed to?


-George


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