Would the code require me to install a 120v receptacle in the space for a free standing 240v range?

Why would you think it could?
Maybe I don't understand the question

We have inspectors that feel that the wall space for a free standing range should have a 120v outlet installed in case the homeowner elects to install a gas range even when he specs on the job call out an electric range.

I don't know how this applies to US code or what (can't see an issue with it), but I will tell you what they do in new houses up here where I live...

They will run 8/3 to the stove, and 10/3 to the dryer location. If you tell them straight out that you have gas appliances (either or both), then they will cap off one hot wire, pigtail the other hot and a neutral to #14s, and put in a 15 A receptical. Then, in goes a 15 A breaker at the panel.

(In the case of the dryer, this is *in addition* to the dedicated laundry circuit.)

It's easily reversable at any time because the wire size is correct. It would just require changing the receptical and installing a new breaker.

[This message has been edited by jdadamo (edited 04-01-2005).]

How nice.
Do they also have you install a 50 amp 240V range circuit if there is a gas stove going in? What if they ever want an electric range?
Simple answer NEC does not require this and if they are under the NEC they have no authority to make you do it. What is even worse than them requiring it is the fact that I am sure some guys do it either not knowing better or just to "keep the inspector happy".

This issue is addressed in the NPPA/ IAEI book, "Analysis of Changes 2005 NEC. Pg 46, in discussing 210.52(C), and its' accompanying artwork, helps clarify that the area behind a range does not count toward receptacle requirements.
While it does not specifically address the matter of a free-standing range, I believe that the provision applies to ALL ranges- free standing or counter mounted.

But- why not install one anyway? Ranges used to have a convenience receptacle built in ( power tapped from range circuit inside the appliance). In many kitchens, this was the only convenience receptacle! At any rate, the cook will often wish to use a mixer, etc., while at the stove.

renosteinke,
210.52(C) only applies to countertops. 210.52(A)(1) applies to the space behind a free standing range and requires a 125V, 15 or 20A receptacle if the space is 24" or more in width.
Don

Edit- nevermind, completely misread what I was replying to.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 04-01-2005).]

Common sense has to prevail sometimes in our work. "Free standing range".... maybe I am not sure what that really is???? As most ranges in the areas I have seen are up against the wall. Maybe someone can explain what one really is.
How does 210.52(B)(4) fit into this mix?

Someone is confused here? Is it me. I thought the question was do you need a 120v receptacle behind an electric range? The range is powered by a 40 or 50 amp 240v receptacle. The answer is no you do not need an addtional 120v receptacle in that space just in case they install a gas range at some time.

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 04-02-2005).]

By free standing I meant a range that sets on the floor and is not a "built-in" or fastened to the countertop around it. We have a tendency to use slang expressions sometimes and people from other areas of the country are not familiar with them and don't know what they mean. I'm from Michigan and I was talking to a fellow IAEI member from Arkansas (Phil Cox) about a "doorwall" and I had to explain to him what I meant by the term "doorwall". For those who know Phil, you realize of course, he might have been messing with me.

The space provided for the range is wall space and the rule in 210.52(A)(1) must be met.
Don

I still don't seem to understand the question asked.
How would 210.52(A)(1) apply to space behind a range? There is no way you can convince me that I need a 120v receptacle behind a 50 amp 240v range to comply with wall spacing requirements.

Don does have a point here...the wall space behind that freestanding range, be it electric or gas would require a 125 volt 20 amp receptacle outlet according to 210.52(A) connected to a small appliance branch circuit according to 210.52(B)

Another keen observation by George Little and his band of inspectors

Wait a minute though...another observation...what about the receptacle serving the counter space on the wall next to the free standing range, which is not more than 5 1/2 feet above the floor as described in in 210.52? Would this satisfy 210.52(A)

shortcircuit

Okay Don, I've got this sub Zero refrigerator that has a separate 15a circuit feeding a receptacle 6 feet above the floor. You are saying I still need a receptacle for this "wall space"? And, with my range, if I have a 240v range and you want a 120v. receptacle installed in this same space, what will it be used for? We don't install a 120v receptacle at the dryer location when they have a 240v. dryer? What about the dishwasher space? I guess as an inspector, I'd not ask for a receptacle for these cases.

Do they also make the plumber install a gas line, just in case?

Sorry, reccapt, the NFPA disagrees with you. As they say in their "Analysis of changes,"

"The new exception and associated figures apply to the area between a kitchen sink or a range and the wall behind them."

Likewise, I fail to se how a 'free standing' range would be any different. Remove thr range, and there is no countertop. You are never required to provide counter-top receptacles where there is no countertop.
The only "grey" area- what prompted the clarifying exception- was in the case of a stove top that was set in a hole in the counter- did that space count as part of the counter? The exception makes clear that such spaces are not part of the counter.

I'm sorry....maybe I was hasty.....IF a range was placed so that there was no countertop receptacle within six feet, then a wall outlet would be required.
How high can a wall outlet be, and still count? Five and a half feet, if I recall correctly. Countertop receptacles ( 36" std height, plus 20") are low enough to count.

Now I have never seen a stove with a 120 v. receptacle behind it, in addition to the 220 range receptacle. Perhaps Reno is behind the times....I can't imagine everybody doing it wrong for so long, however. If anyone has a pic of such an install....post it, please!

This is a foolish issue.

A recept behind a range is not accessable. Yet there are claims that such a recept can service the areas on both sides of the range.

A proper way to design is to treat the range as a "doorway" and place a recept within 6' of each side.

95% of the time you see an electric range it's because there is no gas in the house because it's unavailable. That's the way it is around here anyway.

-Hal

Shortcircuit- I am flattered by your comment-
[quote]Another keen observation by George Little and his band of inspectors[quote/]
I learn a lot from this forum and hopefully I can contribute to the uniforimity of all.

Keep on posting George Little...you will keep us all on our toes...

I too, have learned volumes from this forum and veterans such as you

shortcircuit

Guys,
210.52(A)(1) applies to all wall spaces 2' or wider, however the receptacles required by 210.52(C) will always satisfy the requirement in 210.52(A)(1) unless the stove space is over 8' wide.
Don

renosteinke,
The IAEI comment on the change to 210.52(C) has nothing to do with the the wall space where there is no counter. The code section and comment only apply to counter top areas.
Don

You guys had me confused for a while. As an inspector I have never required a 120 V outlet behind an electric stove that has a 240 V outlet. It makes no sense. Especially when there are outlets on either side of the stove location. It would be a design consideration if someone wanted it but, not a requirement. They stopped putting recpt.s on stoves and bathroom cabinets when GFI requirements came in. With the new requirements for 4 wires to stoves a fused adaptor could be made that would just plug into the 240 outlet and provide the 120 V outlet. Does someone want to start making them ? I won't even ask for royalties. Alan

Scenario:

A 36 inch (width) range. On either side of the range, a receptacle is installed 1 foot from the range. This makes the receptacles spaced at 5 feet. More than the countertop requirements permits, but less than 12 feet.
So which requirement am I trying to meet? Both, one or the other.
Does the countertop receptacle placed less than 5 1/2 feet above the finished floor fulfill the "wall space" requirement.

I say that the space behind the range is not required to be counted as wall space [210.52(C)(5)] and therefore does not require a receptacle placed there...in my mind a horrible location for a receptacle as it invites a safety hazard worse than if it was not there.

If we have to put receptacle outlets above the stove, will we be required to start putting them above electric baseboard heaters next? Seems safer above the heater than the stove!

PCBelarge,
You have to comply with 210.52(C) for the countertops and 210.52(A) for the wall space where the stove will be installed.
The first part of 210.52 says that receptacles located 5 1/2 feet or less above the finished floor can be used to satisfy the wall receptacle requirement in 210.52(A).
How does anything in 210.52(C) apply the wall space behind a free standing stove? The section only applies to countertops. I see nothing in the code that says the wall space behind free standing appliances in not counted for the purposes of 210.52(A). If there is please cite the code section. I maintain that this space is wall space and receptacles must be installed to meet rule in 210.52(A), but if there is a countertop next the wall space, the required countertop receptacle, as long as it is 5.5' or less above the floor, will, in almost all cases, satisfy the rule in 210.52(A).
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 04-03-2005).]

As it has been in the past when common sense fails us, the NEC helps to answer these questions. In the 2005 NEC this issue is clearly addressed (sp?) in 210.52(3)(C)(1). This execption states....Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall directly behind a range or sink in the installation described in Figure 210.52.

Redogs54,
How does anything in 210.52(C) apply to the question of the wall space behind a free staning stove? The section only applies to wall space above countertops.
Don



[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 04-04-2005).]

Fine, Res, be that way. My kitchen is so narrow I consider it a "halway", so the 6 ft. rule doesn't apply :-)
And my offer stands: I'd like to see a stove installed with a convenience receptacle behind it. Pictures, please.

Assuming we have to put a receptacle above the kitchen sink to satisfy the 6 ft. wall space requirement, would we by code NOT be required to make it GFI protected???? It is NOT serving a countertop and it is NOT within 6ft of a BAR sink! Seems like the code did not intend for these outlets to be required behind a kitchen sink or behind the stove.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that I need a receptacle in the refrigerator space because the one I have installed in that space is 6' feet up the wall and doesn't qualify for the "required" wall space receptacle

George Little...most of the refridgerators that require the receptacle up high on the wall are fixed in the dedicated space. Also the counter plug to either side would probably be within the distance required by 210.52(A)(1)

shortcircuit

ps...interesting question on GFP and the generator

George,
Unless the refrigerator is fastened in place, the wall space behind it is covered by 210.52(A)(1). That does not mean that there must be receptacle directly behind it, but there must be one within 6' from any point on that wall space, measured horizontally along the floor line.
Don

Don- In in response to your requiring a receptacle behind my refrigerator, how am I going to ever use it? I know you are a very sharp code guy but you and I don't agree on this one because I don't see it as practical to install or ask the contractor to install a receptacle that can't or won't be used.

As a rule, I always install an outlet behind a free standing stove if they want it or not. Just an added perk. I agree it is not necessary if they have an electric range. What I do is install it with the above the range microwave circuit. The circuit will be dedicated to the range igniter(if needed) and the microwave. No big deal to add one outlet if I'm passing my wire in that space anyway. It is not serving the countertop, it is accessible, it is considered dedicated to a specific appliance if used, and if used the load would be negligable. And of course the local AHJ doesn't require it unless there is a gas stove.

Blessings,
Mark

George I also agree with shortcircuits comments. You bring some great questions to the forum.


What does practical have to do with the NEC?

I agree with Don that a receptacle must be within 6' of the rear of the range.

That said I have never seen one installed where not used by the range.

Bob

George,
What section of the code says that the wall space behind free standing appliances is not "wall sapce"???
Don

I guess you got me on that one Don. However, I see no hazard in not having a 120v.receptacle behind the stove if it's an electrric stove. If you do decide to put one there and they have no gas line installed I would look for it to be on the small appliance circuit.


[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 04-07-2005).]

I think Don is right technically per the code, but I also think this is one of the more poorly writtens sections of the Code.

210.52(B)(1) says In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room...the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits...shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A)...

210.52(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den......

Is 210.52(B)(1) not self contradicting?

If someone had a 14 foot unbroken wall space, placed a 36" wide electric range/stove right in the middle, had a receptacle installed 6 inches from each end of the wall, would I make them install another receptacle somewhere in the middle of those two receptacles at least one foot inside of either one of them? Maybe.

I submit that the space behind a free-standing stove does not constitute a "habitable room."

What about behind a big screen TV?
Don

Let's try another approach to show a recept servicing the area behind the stove ...

Assume we place a recept behind the stove and another 12' away. The recept "behind the stove" is inaccessible for all practical purposes. The recept "12' away" needs to service devices 9-11' away from it. Not quite in the spirit of the code.

The argument for a recept servicing the area behind the stove seems foolish.

George,
I never said it made sense. I just don't find anything in the code that says the wall space behind a stove is not "wall space". Lacking a code rule to say that this is not wall space, 210.52(A)(1) applies.
Don