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Re: Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized #6537 01/29/07 05:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 47
N
NJ_WVUGrad Offline
Member
Resqcapt

I don't understand your post - you seem to be making a blanket statement about not working hot regardless of PPE.

The point of NFPA 70 and OSHA is that the proper PPE and procedure be used when working hot when it is necessary.

Now to me, the situation that Whiterook explained about the POCO not doing disconnect/reconnect (D&R) at a commercial site that feeds multiple tenants is a good example.

If it is a situation where a service must be tapped hot, due to the layout of the service.
My interpretation would be that the licensed electrical contractor can perform the job.

Now thats not to say that I myself would be comfortable doing it, but thats not to say it cannot safely be done by the proper person.

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Re: Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized #6538 01/29/07 06:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
iwire Offline
Moderator
NJ, the only time a qualified person can work 'hot' PPE or not is for troubleshooting and in cases where de-energizing presents more of hazard than not. (Loss of money, production etc. are not legitimate reasons)

Quote
1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.


Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.


Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.


Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.



Lets say you decide shutting down is more of a hazard than not shutting down.

Now lets say that with all the proper PPE and care someone gets injured.

It will be hard to defend that decision as at this point they are injuries.

It is unfortunate that what I see happening with more facilities addressing 70E is that they believe once suitable PPE is purchased that live work for any reason is allowed.

Bob



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-29-2007).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized #6539 01/29/07 07:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 47
N
NJ_WVUGrad Offline
Member
iwire

I would say that work associated with certain commercial/residential service taps, etc would fall under "

"infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations"

You can't have the POCO pull the cut-outs on a pole that may service one or more commercial building to remove/relocate a 200A meter or the like. Same thing with doing service entrance work in a Multiple Dwelling Unit - Apartment or the like.

I would say that shutting down service at the pole to 20 or so apartments or mixed use commercial to replace a main breaker or relocate a meter etc, is "infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations"

But I AM saying that the work could/can and is performed with proper training & PPE.


PS - When I say "Main Breaker" I mean a Main Breaker on a tenant panel/meter, or of a service submetered from the main service.

[This message has been edited by NJ_WVUGrad (edited 01-29-2007).]

Re: Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized #6540 01/29/07 07:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
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iwire Offline
Moderator
Well we disagree.

And if the stuff hits the fan you will be up creek.

As I mentioned you could decide shutting down is infeasible but are you willing to sign you name on a hot work form saying it was your decision?

Will you be prepared to defend that position in court if something goes wrong?

Just so you know I am not a 'newbie' and I don't work in an office

I have been involved with projects that did require shutting down a block in the middle of downtown Boston.

To each their own, this 70 E deal has just recently been brought to the forefront.

A lot of attitudes will have t change or many companies are going to pay large fines.

It is not going to be easy.

I happen to work for a company that expects me to refuse any request by a customer to do hot work unless they sign paper work explaining the reason i must be done hot.

Most times once they see the paper work they find a way to shut down.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized #6541 01/29/07 08:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
L
LK Offline
Member
The utilities in NJ will do the disconnect reconnect, the problem usually comes when the contractor does not want to wait, for the scheduled shutdown date, and time the utility assigns, so with JCP&L they sign the liability release, and with PS they take the liability on themself, it has become a standard practice for many years to do disconnects and reconnects for years, what the guys doing this have not considered is their insurer will not underwrite this activity, so if anything happens with or without PP they are on their own.

PS at one time had safety classes, which were a real wake up, they did a fault demo, This is one time you can see 50 or more EC's running backwards, the meter department ran the show back then, would be nice if they started that program back up.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-29-2007).]

Re: Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized #6542 01/29/07 10:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,281
electure Offline
Member
Quote
You can't have the POCO pull the cut-outs on a pole that may service one or more commercial building to remove/relocate a 200A meter or the like. Same thing with doing service entrance work in a Multiple Dwelling Unit - Apartment or the like.

I would say that shutting down service at the pole to 20 or so apartments or mixed use commercial to replace a main breaker or relocate a meter etc, is "infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations"


Don't you mean "infeasible due to inconvenience"?
Let's up the ante here.
Instead of a mini-mart or 2, let's make it a couple of commercial / manufacturing places on the same 480/277 transformer.
Are you saying that an electrician should be expected to change out a 1000Amp Boltswitch Main while it's energized?
The thought that a couple of apartment dwellers might miss Oprah doesn't constitute a reason to relocate a meter while energized.

Re: Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized #6543 01/29/07 10:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 98
O
OreElect Offline
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