I'm wondering about how many out there have experienced any problems with connecting fluorescent fixtures into live circuits. Consider the possibility of having a short in a new fixture..straight out of the box..and you try to add that light by slipping a wire nut loose and jamming in the new wire.. until you start to connect that last wire!!!

Why in the world are you connecting to a live circuit? Trying to get your name in the paper?

Something similar happened to an apprentice I knew, connecting up a piece of Romex that had a dead short. His fingers were burned pretty bad. No permanent damage, but he was off work for a couple of weeks. I don't believe he ever connected to a live wire again.

Well Mr. Engineer, perhaps you should spend some time doing commercial service. You won't let us "value engineer" the system, even though it's the engineer's client who usually requests it, now you want us to turn off the lights/circuit. Most of us wish we could, we're not too crazy about working on live circuits; but try and turn off the lights for only 2 minutes and see what the office people say. In ain't gonna happen. But there's always choice 2 ... do it when the office is closed. That can work, but the customers won't pay the OT bill. So we do what we have to do. By the way, try and change a 4 way switch in a 2 gang metal box in a 277v system (where the other switch is on a different phase) while it's hot. That'll keep you humble.

To answer your question ... I've probably added 100 or so and have been lucky about 98 times. You just learn to be careful and be prepared.

Sorry about the tone here, don't mean to pick on you personally.

BTW are you one of the engrs whose blueprints still tell us to use THW wire? )

That reminds me of my apprenticeship. I was working on a snack bar/marina complex and the branch panel didn't have any circuit labeling. My J.W. told me to just short the hot out to a solid ground, and thus identify the breaker later by seeing which one tripped. Well, I did that trick one time too many when the greasy wood floor caught fire because of the arcing ground fault I created at a floor outlet! I guess I should have connected the wire to ground with more 'authority'..or better still, I should have worked with a REAL Journeyman Wireman.

Ah Steve, I KNEW that my question was double edged! No, I'm not an engineer. How 'bout those engineers who spec only one multiwire home run in a 3/4 conduit!?

At last, an honest down to earth thread!
70E and subpart S would hold us suspect for our everyday habits. The justification for live work is simply smoke & mirrors to shelter the corporate machine from liability, it serves them more than it ever will us.
BTW, screw up, and your dead carcass will be posted on the internet as an example of incompetance!!!!!

I'm not recommending this, of course.
One could very easily detect a dead short by testing the load side of their wiring with an ohmmeter before they hooked it up hot!!

Steve,
That's fine that you work these circuits hot until someone gets hurt or killed. Then you not only have to deal with the injury or death but also a "wanton and willful" citation from OSHA. There a number of larger electrical contracting firms that have notified their clients that they will not work anything hot, with the only exception being the necessary hot troubleshooting. Clients that did not want the circuits shut off were told to find another contractor.
Note that your 277 volt switch example is also a code violation. See 380-8(b).
Don(resqcapt19)

Steve Miller,
Who cares what the office people say? It's not their butt on the line.

The company I work for had an electrician that against orders was working a hot 277 light circuit. His autopsy said it was the shock, and not the 25 foot fall to the concrete that killed him. If we can't shut it off, then it doesn't get connected. Workmen's Comp Insurance doubled. Working hot circs is grounds for immediate termination.
"So we do what we have to do" is a crock. Nobody can make you do it.
("Sorry, JP, we'll get that dead electrician out of your office right away. We wouldn't want to INCONVENIENCE YOU")
Edited 'cause there are 2 Steve M's posting on this thread, and only 1 is acting dumb


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-06-2002).]

Everyone has a story, it would seem that most would not wish to do live work. I for one agree. I have no argument with subpart S & 70E in principal , as safety is a priority. I do not, however, subscribe to a few points made in them.
>>>An employer can make an employee work a live circuit, under circumstances that i find gray , without any input from the employee who ultimately is put at risk.
>>>I would be willing to bet that out of the last i've heard 1/2 million electricians in this country , the majority are have either no safety training/have not seen 70E/ are unaware of subpart S .

My point is i feel the system , allbeit grand intentions, does not serve those intended very well.

In Miller's defense, I've changed out ballasts hot in a local Hardee's because they didn't want the lights out during business hours.

[sarcasm]
I can just see some of you shutting down an entire factory to make a tap connection... [/sarcasm]

Around here, the electrician unwilling to work hot period will find himself in the commodity cheese line.

I wish I did work in an area where I could call the shots, "No, I don't do that, you'll have to do it my way or find someone else... Muahahahahaha!"...

Cripes guys, HV linemen probably think we're a bunch of wusses...

The way I look at it, if your hands sweat, find another carreer...

I know, I know, OSHA and all that, but I've never seen an OSHA rep around here, (and I would be the most compliant one if they did show up, being the only one on site with steel toe boots and I do have a hardhat in the truck although I rarely wear it).

Sorry, didn't mean to rant, but there's an ideal world and then there's the real world.

Actually I'm jealous... You guys making $40K a year and never have to work hot... Me netting $6K (not a typo) and I do all sorts of questionable things just to keep 'em happy...

Must be nice...

Yeah, OK, usually it's Sparky that gets me in trouble here. 30 years ago, we did not turn most things off to work it. The time I spent as a lineman reinforced a lot of that, but I do realize, most things can be de-energized with understanding now days. If you have to hook it up hot, (and let's face it, sometimes you do) connect everything except your hot conductor, and then tap the new conductor to your energized conductor. You may get a slight arc, but if it is shorted it will be much larger, since your doing this "on the run" you won't have a solid connection to "blow" hot copper all over you. That is exactly the way a lineman is taught to check before solid connection. when replacing a lightning arrestor, sometimes they aren't good, you learn that method real fast. Mea Culpa to all you OSHA types out there.

Just go through the process of someone getting seriously hurt or killed that works for you and see if you don’t re think that position.
I hooking up that light hot worth loosing your business?

I see a large gap bettween what is, and what should be, not that it justifies it's existence, yet i'm somewhat frustrated with it.
I carted 70E around in my van for some time , only having learned of it from you guys on the BB's. A worthy investment of $30+ , i don't see why it is not standard fare for apprenticship programs. The linesmen were the only group i could coverse with, some of whom would point technique to me as George stated. Most other electricians had little to no knowledge of the document. Many sole proprietors simply pointed out thier exemption from OSHA. This is why 'subbing-out' has become a popular tactic for helpers. I suppose i'm perpetuating a group rant......

I was asked one day by a non-electrician if I was comfortable working "hot" circuits. My reply to him was, "The day that I am comfortable working hot circuits, is the day I put my tools down for good." Unfortunately with my job comes a lot more live work than I would like to tackle on a daily basis. I deal with a lot of 240/480 systems on street lighting that is worked hot to troubleshoot the endless problems with them. We have already shut down entire buildings to do work on electrical systems and where ever possible shutdown the circuits to be worked on. One problem we run into, is the incompetent work of our precursors. Constantly running into white wires that are hot and hot wires that are taped off in a box. I guess when it comes to this discussion, I am all for shutting the power down whenever possible. There are times when it is just not feasible and at those times all due care and safety concerns must be addressed.

Well I think a "group rant" can be enlightening. Doctrinaire safety talk is meaningless without the war stories that make it real. Hopefully we who have experienced what happens by doing things "old school" can enlighten the ones who are a bit greener.
As an apprentice instructor for 5 yrs, I wasn't given the green light to teach the "realities" of the trade practices -past and future- because of fears that I would possibly be positively sanctioning the old ways, merely by letting the apprentices know how it was done! So they learn this stuff on the job without the full picture, or they figure it out on their own, and think they can endear themselves to the company by cutting corners.

There are a bunch of extremes we deal with. About two years ago I worked at a plywood mill that was on the edge of bankruptcy. To shut down the line was a big deal and cost a lot of production. Like the other electricians there I just "did what I had to". Understand, this is a very depressed area and jobs are very hard to find. But some things did not need to be worked "hot" and I had to show the "safety" guy the applicable regs to get this stopped. The mill did shut down and the next job was the extreme in the other direction. This was at a well known and large computer makers facility [746 thousand square feet], and a maintenance worker had been killed doing hot work on 277 lights a few years before. To even change tubes they required a licensed journeyman and the power had to be off. I was the only electrician there and ran my butt off trying to keep up. Not counting the logistics of not putting people in the dark in an office setting. Extreme examples of why we see things differently.
Don

Good examples, Sparksalot. The mill example brought to mind the issue of profit sharing and bonus checks..incentives which keep the "anything goes" mindset alive..as long as nobody gets hurt, then its a denial game! "Uh, heck, everybody knows its company policy to lockout/tagout, I don't know why he didn't follow policy!"
Hey, we're a team oriented culture. We want our team to win. Only thing is, we don't quite see the game within the game.

Is everyone here talking about 277V flourescents or 120V or either?

I don't see that big a deal with 120. Worst that usually happens is a zap-tingle on the hand, although a couple of times I got a bigger zinger like halfway up my arm or something.

On 120, I don't usually consider it worth a trip to the panelbox if the job is for one or two switches, outlets or fixtures, especially if I would have to go to another floor to turn it off. And sometimes I'd rather keep it on so I don't have to run a cord for lights. For anyone working for me, I let them decide. I never tell them they have to work hot.

Just how dangereous is 120V. If it depends on the factors, what are they? Like how bad would be a short from one hand to the other? I don't think I've had that happen to me.

Tom,

... I thought you were a Roofer ??

Tom,

Something in the back of my mind says that I will not work with you. I refuse to work with ANYONE who thinks that 120v is nothing to worry about. Ever see someone drop over dead from 120v? Ever see the burns inflicted by 120v? Ever experienced a hand to hand shock on 120v? If you would like some references, I can give you the cemetary plot number. Just let me know.

I was talking 120V... I won't work on anything above 150V to ground hot... Never...

As far as safety, anything above 50V and 6 mA of current is potentially deadly.

TomBrooklyn sounds like a laborer I knew in California who thought he was immune to electric shock since he never got zapped.. through his dry callused fingers!

[This message has been edited by Elzappr (edited 01-17-2002).]

BigBlue, Probably if we were working together, I'd be working for you and doing it your way, but anyway you asked me if I:

> ...Ever see someone drop over dead from 120v? No.

> Ever see the burns inflicted by 120v?
No.

Ever experienced a hand to hand shock on 120v? I don't think so, but I was wondering how bad that can be. I specifically asked about that above.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should work hot on 120. I was just saying that I do. I've also seen a lot of electicians do it and a lot more. Some of the responders above admit to doing it, so I'm not feeling all alone here.

It could be that 120V is a lot more dangerous than I thought. Take my post in the form of a question, not a recomendation to follow.

sparky said "As far as safety, anything above 50V and 6 mA of current is potentially deadly."

Under what circumstances could such a low V/A be deadly or seriously injurious? I would certainly like to know.

I can understand both sides of this argument. Have worked many times hot. Have been shocked the worst by 120. If I can, I shut down any ckt I work on except during troubleshooting. I do NOT allow my apprentices to work hot. Sometimes you just have to tell the office types tough s*** the light are going off or the power is going down. I try to be diplomatic about it but safety come first. The only real reason to work hot is when it is absolutly necessary to do so. No office or store location or house has any reason to work hot because of potential hazards of shuting down the power.
Industrial areas can be a different story.

Althought many of us will work hot at various voltages for various reasons, we should never minimize the risks of 120 volt work. It is foolish to say, as is often heard "it's only 120 volts". So many factors affect the resistance of the body path (dampness, contact area, overall health, etc) that it is easy to have a low enough body resistance to allow the one tenth of an amp that will kill most people, pass through the body. We don't know our resistance at any given time, and if we choose to work hot(even at 120), for whatever reason, do it cautiously.

GFCI's 4-6 ma figure was originally solicted from the medical community. It is the threshold of V-fib , a potentially lethal heart arythmia.
Having access to an EKG, i'd be willing to entertain contestants.
A printed strip will be avaliable @ no additional $$$

The figure that I am familiar with for average skin resistance is 5000Ohms. Divide that into 120 V and you have 24mA.(Divide it into 50 V and you get a tingle of 1mA.) Current path determines whether or not it is lethal. Electricians working things "hot" know how to keep a relatively safe current path in the event of an inadvertent screw-up. Just because you see electricians working hot doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. But let's not lose focus on the flash hazards. Drawing an unexpected arc can do serious damage to your eyes, or startle you off your ladder!

Circumtsances are pertinent, yes. Skin resistance, even body resistance is a factor, the new defib's are 'biphasic' with this in mind.......digression....

Myself, I think every newbie needs to experience , in some safe manner, the power in a fault.

Having iron atomize is a lasting impression.

I certainly don't like working anything hot if I don't have to ...I got the living Sh** shocked out of me on live 277...I remember to this day actually going to the bathroom and looking in the mirror to see if smoke was coming out of my ears, I thought for sure I was going to die ...it just wouldn't let go of me and there was no one around to help.

I heard something on the news today - this Enron situation - one of the top execs was talking about why no one blew the whistle or did anything about the illegal goings-on....he said in the real world of corporate America today those people with integrity who want to 'go by the book' are usually unemployed.

But I'll tell you something else - NO ONE, and I mean no one who works for me EVER has to work on a live wire under any circumstances. I'm in charge of a large mfg. facilities and I do have the authority to say no - I'll pay my electricians OT to work after hrs. or on the weekends...but I know I'm the exception, most of these guys don't work for someone willing to pay the OT.

From the desk of the electrical designer:
I have seen videos of bus duct under fault conditions. Those things really move around when under fault. As far as 120 volts is concerned, to me that is the most lethal of voltages just because everyone thinks it is low voltage. Higher voltages, every one is more careful of. As stated above, 4-6 mA is enough to kill most men. The test results indicated that most women can take a higher current than men; higher resistance, I suppose. This is in no way reflective of men or women, but just the way it is.
As far as working hot any voltage, I think we in the engineering community always specify that safety comes first. We tell our clients that the contractor will work safely. Speaking of safety, Anyone working on a ladder over 6 feet above the floor should have a safety line tied off to a substantial piece of building steel or other object. When on a lift, the same rule applies, attach your safety harness to the lift. That is the safety rule we use here at my company.
Just my 2 cents.

These new fixtures are almost inevitably made by a child manacled to a work bench.I learned the hardway and put 80 2x4 lay ins to have 32 fixtures bad.Luckily all the fix tures were installed dead,to troubleshoot we isolated each fixture and connected with a cheater cord to a breaker to find the bad ones.If I were forced to connect live,and a rare occasion that would be,I would test the fixture first,especially if it was at the top of a 16' ladder.PS I would not be standing on the top level

does anyone here recognize the term 'backhand', as in you should backhand the wire....??

Yeah, "backhand" it to see if the hairs move?

Elzappr,

Muscular contraction would dictate that the 'back' of your hand making live contact would move it away from said wire toward the body, thus no 'live hold'....

That's what I was taught, except that on a fiberglass ladder it is ineffective....

I'm a tad embarrassed at my upbringing in the trade here.....

Does electricity "know" to only contract the biceps and not the triceps? Seems that the "holding power" would effect all muscle tissue, not just selective ones, and can hold you no matter what part touches...

But yes, I have heard of this technique from local pole climbers...

(just wondering, it has never really made sense to me)

Sparky, when my daughter was about 3 or 4 she asked why the receptacles in the house are dangerous. (I had got on her about messing with them before) Rather than try to explain something she wasn’t going to understand I pulled the plug from a lamp out enough to expose the blades. Had her stand way back and shorted the hot and neutral together with an insulated handel screw driver. She is now 13 and remembers that day like it was yesterday. Needless to say she has an unprecedented respect for electricity.

[This message has been edited by Nick (edited 01-18-2002).]

Warren,
The OSHA rule for ladders says a lifeline is not needed if you are using the ladder properly. Meaning body positioned between the rails, not leaning out from the center etc. Same goes for scissor lifts with properly designed safety rails. As soon as you get above the rail you need to be tied off. I can’t understand some things about tying off with a lanyard and body harness on a ladder. Say you are working on an 8’ ladder at the highest allowable step. That translates into about 7’6”. Your company would require him to be tied off. To be properly tied off he would need to have a point of attachment ratted for 5000lbs. If the structure is 20’ up how does he accomplish this? Also the lanyard must be the shock absorbing type. These usually require 6’ before they start slowing you down. Plus the length of the lanyard = Hitting the floor before it does it’s job. Looks like a false sense of security to me.

Here's my usual speech in regards to working on live circuits:

1: If you are sweating really good, a system pushing current at 40 Volts will cause a harsh shock - harsh enough to make a person lose their footing and fall off a ladder.
If the Voltage comes closer to 50 Volts, this can indeed be lethal to a person when high salt / mineral contents are perspired [sweated out]. Body Resistance may drop as low as 1K ohm when sweating badly.

2: a shock from 120 VAC is just as hazardous as if it was from 208, 230 277 or 480 VAC. The Voltage is high enough at 120 VAC to push currents of 5ma and higher - without a conductive perspiration situation [sweating hard]. As mentioned by others, the lower voltage of 120 VAC can at times "Sneak Up On You" and place a person into a progressively increasing shock situation. The higher levels of current cause the muscles in the hands to grab even tighter - hence the drop in body Resistance will follow.

3: Not only is there the hazard of shocks, but also the blinding flashes that accompany faults.

4: And most important - Some faults [more like a lot of faults] can easily exceed the max. rating of branch breakers - which will then cause the Main Circuit Breaker for that panel to trip [unless the fault has exceeded it's rating too!]. This REALLY gets clients mad! If the fault exceeds the panel's main breaker's rating, it too will not be able to trip.
This leaves the option for calling the Fire Department

In the last 4 weeks, I have been asked by five separate Electricians, why did a certain ground fault [or in 2 cases a L-L fault] trip the main breaker instead of the branch breaker.
Mostly the breakers in question were "No-Trip Zinsco" F frames [the typical ones], so there's one reason
A few thought that the locking clip [prevents someone from turning off dedicated circuits - such as file servers...] was keeping the handle from moving and therefore could not trip during the fault.
It's difficult to explain to some people that the handle does not actuate the on/off or trip actions, but that it resets or opens the contacts through cams and not a direct link.

It's also difficult to explain why the really sparky ground faults will trip branch breakers, but the ones with minimal sparks [but lots of noise] will not trip a branch breaker.
This one takes about 35 days to cover

Well, I feel better now that all this ranting is done!

Moral to story: It takes just one mistake to ruin your day / week / life [or someone else's day / week / life].

Scott SET

Warren, 4 to 6 ma is not killing current. That level is just at the edge of sensing it. It takes about 150 ma of actual current flow, depending on the path though the body, to kill a person. And while it may take more current to be lethal for women this would not be a function of body resistance in that current is current, and therefore the variable would be the applied voltage. But not to take away from the main point, 120v can be dangerous. Also, for safety, I always quickly slap a condutor with one finger before working with it, even after I've used my meter. Don

I stand corrected.

Sparksalot, my sources tell me that 2 to 10 mA is enough to cause muscular contraction, and 5 to 25 mA causes a painful shock and inability to let go. Obviously, it all depends on skin resistance. If you are sweating you will get nailed worse. Gfci's were set up to trip around 5mA because any more than that could cause someone to get killed. Sure, ventricular fibrillation occurs around 50mA, but prople can get killed at lower currents because of the muscular contractions and the "lock on" effect, and falls or cuts resulting from such effects can cause someone to be killed.

hi,
i have only one thing to say here......

"electricity has no respect for ingonrance"..

nothing personal...just good advice...no circuit is so important that a person should ever work on it hot...i know some testing must be done hot but if you are going to extend circuits or add additional devices or make changes to an exisiting system...you wouldnt want to make yourself a link between the circuit and the power company now would you? more commonly referred to as a "human fuse"

SHUT IT DOWN..LOCK IT OUT AND TAG IT..PERIOD

i always lift the wire off the breaker if possible just to go one step further
..be safe..whatever your doing isnt worth anything if your dead
-regards

frodo


[This message has been edited by frodo (edited 01-21-2002).]

Elzappr
OK, you got me to look it up. I once worked for a very large oil company. They were very big on safety and the numbers they gave were about 150ma. I checked numerous sources online and the numbers ran as low as 70ma and up to 300ma. These were sources such as doctors and worker safety organizations so I think we need to figure the lethal level to be somewhere in that range. Also, as to different effects depending on sweating or being grounded, remember, current is current. If X amount of current is flowing though a person being sweaty or well grounded or whatever will not affect the effect. In other words, if a person were hooked up to a limited current source of say 5ma, no matter how well grounded or sweaty or good the contact they would not feel more that minor pain. Another interesting thing I found, according to at least two sources women actually have slightly less tolerance for electrical shock than men. But then, since they tend to be less macho than men they probably are more careful too.
Don

One of my manywonderful mentors, now retired, used his fingers as a tester.
He smoked those filterless camels, many times down until his fingers burnt, which he no longer felt towards the end of his carear.

I have a Bio-Medical Electrical Engineering professor who deals with electrical stimulus and monitoring of body functions. He has always felt that 1mA is enough to stop a heart or create a condition that can interrupt the hearts natural rhythm.

I don't even like working on a live panel let alone changing/wiring devices on a live circuit. I hate the mentality of any company/person that can't be bothered to lose a few minutes of light or productivity in the name of safety. Seriously, what have we come to that a person's life is less important than the bottom line or even operations of a company? It annoys the crap out of me.

Colorado, you sure dug up a dated thread ... more power to you! If nothing else, we got to hear some comments from folks who REALLY don't like engineers

There is some basis to those bitter feelings. I've been in too many offices where everything was controlled off one switch, or there was a shared neutral between all the lights, with the result that you had to either work hot, or in the dark. Pick your risk multiplier!

That situation, thankfully, has become lees a problem as the result of 'energy codes.' The "experts" have suddenly discovered that light use less energy when they're turned off.

It was just a situation ... opening a shared neutral (something had been tied in that I didn't know about) that led to my buying the $600 fried guts of a change machine. Oops.

So ... here's my solution ... especially for lights: use the "Wago" or "In-Sure" type connectors, taking care that there is at least one extra opening, for adding future wires. These connectors make "adding hot" as safe and simple as it's ever likely to be.

Someone put the light in originally, and there were no lights on before they put some in.

This is when a flashlight comes in handy

The voltage is less of a factor than the current capacity. A 12V automotive battery for instance... has a current capacity of maybe several hundred to over a thousand amps and could easily kill someone shorted.

Also the path through the body is a factor. Since we're full of water it comes down mostly to luck, but it doesn't take much current at all to disrupt the nerves controlling your heart and lungs. That's what'll usually kill.

So... just be careful everybody.

Do any of you ever make connections in a TAP CAN hooking up your service??? I don't think they will shut the transformer down so you can hook up a service to a new store in a strip mall, at least during normal working hours. That is when you use Personal Protection Equipment, i.e. gloves or safety mats.

When I was first starting out in the trade, we were changing lamps and ballasts at Wal-Mart and we routinely changed out bad ballasts (277v) while hot. One guy less experienced than me got bit with 277 when he cut the neutral with the load on it. It almost knocked him off the ladder. He had no idea what had happened so we explained it to him and he climbed right back up and did it again. Ignorance can be cured stupidity cannot.
If you absolutely have to work a circuit hot, get the safety gloves eye/face protection or whatever else is necessary.

Reminds me of when I was a kid and the furnace guy came out to check for a leak in the gas line with a match!!! Stupid is as stupid does!

Just some quick thoughts...oh yes, one last thing, who cares if it is 5Ma or 10Ma that can kill ya, point is it is very low...so what will 8...10...15amps do...doh!!!

"we were changing lamps and ballasts at Wal-Mart and we routinely changed out bad ballasts (277v) while hot."

We had 4 electricians in my area killed working on store lighting, and all but one had more then 20 years in the trade.

IMO there is no reason to work on any lighting circuit hot, other then trouble shooting, for the ones that want to showboat, be my guest, it's your life.

But you can bridge your fingers across the terminals of a car battery and you won't even feel a tingle. The reason is that there isn't enough voltage present to force sufficient current through your body. To feel a shock from a car battery, you would need to do something ridiculous like making the connections to 2 needles stuck into your skin, or touching the terminals with your tongue.

So while it is the current that determines the lethality of a shock, a lethal current can only be delivered if there is enough voltage to overcome the skin resistance, or if the resistance is somehow lowered.

When I did my first overhead service upgrade I called the utility to disconnect power so I could connect the new service. They refused and told me it was my job to make the temporary connection live.

In the case of a commercial job as originally posted, I'd come in after hours rather than work on it live. As for working in the dark, I have three large flashlights that brighten up the room.

Dave

COMPLACENCY !
hope i spelled it right.

For the sake of turning off the power for a couple of minutes, to replace a ballast, lamp or add an extra fixture it is worth doing so for the sake of safe working practises.
It's your life on the line, don't forget.

As electure sais a Flashlight is ideal during the dark period.
I use a simple 3 LED headlamp and it does the job perfectly for me.

renosteinke, I just noticed I did dig up an old thread...I only saw Month/Day last time...didn't see it was from 2002...but I like the discussion it brought back

RODALCO...I'm right there with you, I bought a coleman 5 LED/1 Incandescent head unit a few years ago (originally to go caving) and it has proven invaluable to working in the dark.

WhiteRook...in another post (I forget the topic...something about MWBCs) I talked about how when I disrupted a neutral in use and saw sparks (luckily I didn't get bit by it)...that was when I learned the importance of a good neutral and ground.

Rodalco, you are right compacency gets people hurt. I am afraid of getting zapped and possibly killed, so I respect electricity. I think once you loose that respect and become complacent, that is when you will get hurt or killed. I remember some old timers from when I first started that said that had gotten used to getting bit by 120v and now it was no big deal. That is when they become dangerous to themselves as well as anyone working with them.
If a GC/store manager or whoever doesn't want to let you shut down the hot circuit just ask them how much they have in liability insurance...if they still refuse tell 'em to do it themselves and walk away!

Colorado Sparky, I have been hit by the neutral of 277v and don't want that to happen again.

LK, I personally do not think the risk of being "harmed" by working on 277v lighting is worth it, whatever I am getting paid and neither does my family, they would rather keep me around for a while longer...LOL

Remember to "WORK SMART" then you can work again tomorrow.

Often times I want to de-energize the circuit but I don't want to have to go through every circuit in the house to shut down the one I need to shutdown. I saw one of these "circuit breaker finder" tools at the Home Depot but it looks like a piece of crap. Could someone suggest a good named brand tool that does this?

LOL,
Classic, Bill!,

I'm absent minded and don't enjoy doing hot work because I know I'm prone than a lot of people to forget myself and make a mistake. I've gotten more than my share of BS about being a "crybaby" for refusing to work energized 277. And this is from experienced mechanics who should darn sure know better.

The problems in this trade are not simply a complacency about safe work practices, in a lot of cases, it's an aggressive stance against safety because people think that taking un-necessary risk makes them macho.

-John

"The problems in this trade are not simply a complacency about safe work practices, in a lot of cases, it's an aggressive stance against safety because people think that taking un-necessary risk makes them macho."

Yes, men are by nature agressive, but learning how to control it, can be a lifetime job for some, the just do it type, may never learn, a loss of control for them is usually a panic situation, so it becomes much easer to just push on, usually they can avoid problems by just taking a moment to think things out.

This reminds me of an old saying among pilots: "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots."

The new adition of the Canadian Electrical Code, has a solution to changing ballasts hot. Rule 30-308.... All 347 volt (Actually its over 150 volts to ground) fluorescent lighting balasts need a disconnect IN them now. It must be integral to the fixture and clearly marked. It's my understanding that all new light fixtures will be manufactured with this switch included.

I think we should never underestimate the value of a long extension cord and a drop light. Go down the hall until you can find a hot circuit, with the one you are working on LOTO'ed
When that original light was put in, I bet there was temporary lighting in there.

I mostly work alone (w/o another electrician) and frequently do "hot" work because it is often very difficult to find the breaker/fuse that supplies the circuit. If I can't find the switch/breaker/fuse I ALWAYS wear rubber meterman's gloves and safety glasses. Fellow electricians where I work frequently work live without any protection up to and including 480v. The company bought them rubber gloves and glove bags. One said that it was nice they got the bags, since they were never going to wear the gloves and it gave them a place to keep them.

A part of the problem is that they were issued lineman's gloves rather than meterman's gloves. With the meterman's gloves and leather protectors I can change #18 wire and use orange wirenuts with little difficulty.

Quoting myself from Jan 2002
"The company I work for had an electrician that against orders was working a hot 277 light circuit. His autopsy said it was the shock, and not the 25 foot fall to the concrete that killed him. If we can't shut it off, then it doesn't get connected. Workmen's Comp Insurance doubled. Working hot circs is grounds for immediate termination."

An update...
Not only did this guy leave a wife with no husband and 2 kids with no dad, the company went out of business less than a year after I posted that. 20 employees had to hit the streets.
If you think that someone will be symapthetic if you get hurt or killed, think again.
The consensus was that the guy was an idiot who made them lose their business and jobs.

I heard someplace that more people get killed by 120V than any other voltage. Why?

A. It's the most common voltage.
B. Lack of respect.

I think I remember a safety video that said the average age of an electrician killed on the job was something like 49. Familiarity (with hazard) breeds contempt.

Do I work stuff hot? Certainly. Do I do it unnecessarily? Usually not. If I'm changing a service, I will usually do it hot, but consider that I am on a stepladder isolated a few feet from the structure, I'm wearing 1kV gloves (I've seen linemen work 120V with only common leather gloves), and I drop a 15kV blanket over the ACSR neutral if I think there's any chance of contact. Just the other day I called the POCO for a disconnect because the service was on the pole, my ladder wasn't tall enough, and there was a primary up there.

When I was an apprentice, my journeyman made me go up an extension ladder onto a pole to connect a drop to a temp service. The ladder wasn't tall enough, so he backed the truck up to the pole and put the ladder on the bumper. It still wasn't tall enough. He cut 6' of 12/2, tossed it up to me and said, "Tie yourself off." I looked up at the transformer. The cutout was closed. I knew that the primary had been installed within the last day or two, and there were no other loads on the line, so maybe the primary wasn't connected at the other end of the street. I suggested we drive out to the end of the line to check the cutout there. He said no, just connect the **** thing. I had to hold my hands above my head to strip the wires, knowing there was no way I could be certain not to ground myself.

Yes, the transformer was dead. Yes, I took the risk, afraid of losing my job. Yes, it was stupid. This company also made apprentices ride in the backs of vans with unsecured tools and materials.

I take risks now, but I understand the risks, and nobody makes me take them.

WhiteRook, I was also thinking of it that way.

whiterock,
While that is a common practice, it is not permitted by the OSHA rules. The fact that you have suitable PPE does not change the rule that says "tho shalt not work hot".
Don
Don

And how many times have you heard "It's only 120 volts"?

Resqcapt

I don't understand your post - you seem to be making a blanket statement about not working hot regardless of PPE.

The point of NFPA 70 and OSHA is that the proper PPE and procedure be used when working hot when it is necessary.

Now to me, the situation that Whiterook explained about the POCO not doing disconnect/reconnect (D&R) at a commercial site that feeds multiple tenants is a good example.

If it is a situation where a service must be tapped hot, due to the layout of the service.
My interpretation would be that the licensed electrical contractor can perform the job.

Now thats not to say that I myself would be comfortable doing it, but thats not to say it cannot safely be done by the proper person.

NJ, the only time a qualified person can work 'hot' PPE or not is for troubleshooting and in cases where de-energizing presents more of hazard than not. (Loss of money, production etc. are not legitimate reasons)



Lets say you decide shutting down is more of a hazard than not shutting down.

Now lets say that with all the proper PPE and care someone gets injured.

It will be hard to defend that decision as at this point they are injuries.

It is unfortunate that what I see happening with more facilities addressing 70E is that they believe once suitable PPE is purchased that live work for any reason is allowed.

Bob



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-29-2007).]

iwire

I would say that work associated with certain commercial/residential service taps, etc would fall under "

"infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations"

You can't have the POCO pull the cut-outs on a pole that may service one or more commercial building to remove/relocate a 200A meter or the like. Same thing with doing service entrance work in a Multiple Dwelling Unit - Apartment or the like.

I would say that shutting down service at the pole to 20 or so apartments or mixed use commercial to replace a main breaker or relocate a meter etc, is "infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations"

But I AM saying that the work could/can and is performed with proper training & PPE.


PS - When I say "Main Breaker" I mean a Main Breaker on a tenant panel/meter, or of a service submetered from the main service.

[This message has been edited by NJ_WVUGrad (edited 01-29-2007).]

Well we disagree.

And if the stuff hits the fan you will be up creek.

As I mentioned you could decide shutting down is infeasible but are you willing to sign you name on a hot work form saying it was your decision?

Will you be prepared to defend that position in court if something goes wrong?

Just so you know I am not a 'newbie' and I don't work in an office

I have been involved with projects that did require shutting down a block in the middle of downtown Boston.

To each their own, this 70 E deal has just recently been brought to the forefront.

A lot of attitudes will have t change or many companies are going to pay large fines.

It is not going to be easy.

I happen to work for a company that expects me to refuse any request by a customer to do hot work unless they sign paper work explaining the reason i must be done hot.

Most times once they see the paper work they find a way to shut down.

The utilities in NJ will do the disconnect reconnect, the problem usually comes when the contractor does not want to wait, for the scheduled shutdown date, and time the utility assigns, so with JCP&L they sign the liability release, and with PS they take the liability on themself, it has become a standard practice for many years to do disconnects and reconnects for years, what the guys doing this have not considered is their insurer will not underwrite this activity, so if anything happens with or without PP they are on their own.

PS at one time had safety classes, which were a real wake up, they did a fault demo, This is one time you can see 50 or more EC's running backwards, the meter department ran the show back then, would be nice if they started that program back up.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-29-2007).]

Don't you mean "infeasible due to inconvenience"?
Let's up the ante here.
Instead of a mini-mart or 2, let's make it a couple of commercial / manufacturing places on the same 480/277 transformer.
Are you saying that an electrician should be expected to change out a 1000Amp Boltswitch Main while it's energized?
The thought that a couple of apartment dwellers might miss Oprah doesn't constitute a reason to relocate a meter while energized.

http://www.ewh.ieee.org/cmte/ias-esw/pdfs/Hazards_of_Electricity.pdf