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#50640 04/09/05 02:52 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
A
aldav53 Offline OP
Member
Doing a remodel job in a home and in the kitchen the old cook top had a 30a 240v
10-2 NM run to it. The new cook top has 2 power leads, 1 neutral and a ground. The new one is probably set up to run some 120v things on it, along with the 240v heat elements. Is there any way to hook this up without having to run a new 10-3 NM circuit? Otherwise the ground will end up being a current carring ground.


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"
#50641 04/09/05 03:04 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
You are there to sell them wire aren't you?


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#50642 04/09/05 06:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 42
N
Member
I think you know the answer to your own question.

#50643 04/09/05 06:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Quote
You are there to sell them wire aren't you?

Well put!

We sell them the material and rent them our knowledge.

We know it is incorrect to use the EGC as the neutral, thats why they hired an electrician. They are looking for a safe, code compliant job, even though they will not be happy about the costs.



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 04-09-2005).]


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
#50644 04/09/05 08:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 209
H
Member
Perhaps a look at the installation instructions might shed some light on this. If it is listed for a 2 wire installation the instructions will let you know. (Although I know it is tough for us to ask for directions!)

#50645 04/09/05 02:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
A
aldav53 Offline OP
Member
If the neutral and the ground are tied together at the main panel feeding the cook-top. Tieing the neutral and ground (from the cook-top) together at the junction box (using exhisting ground) right below the cook-top would be the same results.
With a new circuit running 10-3, if you touch the neutral at the cook-top, it would be the same as touching the ground, since they are tied together at the main panel.
Am I wrong?


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"
#50646 04/09/05 02:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 545
A
aldav53 Offline OP
Member
HLCbuild,
Actually I didn't see the cooktop, my help work on it. But if there is 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground, I don't see what the directions would tell you. Its pretty self explanitory.
The situation with water heaters, dryers, using the neutral is the same, kinda unclear as to why there is a difference from the main panel and the recept or junction point as far as the neutral and ground tied together.


The Golden Rule - "The man with the gold makes the rule"
#50647 04/09/05 02:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
There is no time that the NEC allows the use of an EGC as the neutral on the load side of the service disconnect.

The NEC used to let you use the neutral to ground range and dryer frames. This is not allowed anymore except in existing installations.

Current carrying conductors must be insulated, the EGC is not insulated.

One reason for the separation of the grounded and grounding conductors is to prevent a difference of potential caused by voltage drop across the conductor.

It is great you want to learn the reasons for this but you should (in my opinion) not believe you can second guess issues that have long been worked out.

If it was not a safety issue the NEC would allow it.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
#50648 04/09/05 04:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 840
C
Member
I can't believe this question is even being asked by an electrician. [Linked Image]

Peter


Peter
#50649 04/09/05 05:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 37
J
Member
Here's your risk:

Lets assume (theoretically) that you do indeed tie together the neutral and ground at the cooktop, connecting them both to the EGC. Now just for fun, lets sever that EGC. Customer turns on stove and causes some kind of 120 v load. Neutral and ground have been bonded at connection point. Customer touches stove. What happens? They complete the circuit. Dead customer. Your license goes bye-bye.

This doesn't happen when you keep them separated all the way back. A severed neutral is just a severed neutral. (And yes, this same risk exists in pre-1996 3-wire stoves and dryers, but that is completely besides the point).

I'm not even an electrician (which is why I barely pipe up here unless I know i'm right) but this is so blatantly obvious to me...

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