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#2844 07/31/01 07:46 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
>As we all know, electric current will follow any given path to ground.
Correct - follow each path in inverse proportion to the resistance of that path.

>Differences in potential is the key word here I believe.
Absolutely! And proper bonding is supposed to minimize those differences to a harmless point.


>With a baked out or non existent ground rod and a broken/disconnected neutral you have isolated your water line once again from grnd. Although it is isolated from grnd it is also isolated from the source.
I don't follow.

>The path would be someone that touches the water line or its connected fixtures and is touching a ground.
Can you be specific? What ground?
Why is this ground not bonded to the water pipe via a copper conductor?

>But what if that person was downstairs on a concrete floor, barefooted, and touches that line?
This is why I like having the concrete or dirt floor bonded as well.

>Or if that person is standing outside barefooted and reaches for the spigot (which is bonded)?
No harm done. The earth is baked so basically no current flows.

>There are many instances that a person can be grounded.
Yes, but if proper bonding is done, the person is never more grounded than anything else he touches.

However, the outside spigot is a problem.
Code should require a GE within 18" of an outdoor metallic spigot. That way if the earth becomes damp at the spigot, it will become damp around the GE. And the GEC should be bonded to the spigot preferably from indoors.


>The scenario I am using has made the waterline just as energized as any ungrounded conductor!
But the UGCs are not as energized since they don't have a metallic return path.

If the earth is baked out as you say, then electricity trying to return through a human also has to go through that baked out earth too. If current can't return via a metal rod 8' in the ground, then why will it return via a human? The human just adds a few thousand more ohms to the path.

>bonded or unbonded a hazard could exist either way. Which would be the most likely to occur?
Unbonded. The only time that there is a hazard with them bonded is when the neutral has broken and the person is standing on wet ground holding an outdoor metallic spigot far from the GEs, and that is relatively rare by comparison. If the pipes weren't bonded, many more faults would go undetected - the bird on the wire effect, where metallic objects are like the bird.

The obvious solution is to use more plastic for the water pipes and drains.

And you also make the case for why I like to see panels and meter bases bonded to whatever I am standing on when I have to touch them.

Indoor ground rods or plates make sense to me.

#2845 08/02/01 03:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 40
G
glenn35 Offline OP
Member
Dspark, what is it that you are not understanding?

Think of it this way. Place one end of your voltmeter probe in the ground(not ground rod), place the other probe on the neutral buss of an electrical system that has a broken neutral. What is the reading on the voltmeter? 120V? 100V? Now consider yourself in place of the voltmeter. How much current is going thru you?

Say for instance the ground rod is in tact and working perfectly. Take a load reading on the ground wire. Lets say its 10A. Now remove the ground wire from the ground rod. This would simulate a non existent ground rod or a rod that has baked out earth surrounding it. By my saying baked out , what I mean is that the earth in contact with the rod has crystalized(probably from a lightning strike or from carrying load for a period of time). When current is introduced into the ground for periods of time the earth at the point of contact becomes insulated(turns into glass). Now if that rod is not making contact then it is useless. Everthng that is bonded to the neutral buss becomes an extension to that buss. And if that buss is isolated from its source anything that tries to create a path to ground will become energized.

I wish my scanner was working because a picture is worth a thousand words.

#2846 08/02/01 04:06 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
>What is the reading on the voltmeter? 120V?
Let's just say it is.

>How much current is going thru you?
Next to nothing if I have on sneakers. Take a reading between neutral and me. What is it? 10 V? 5 V?

>Now if that rod is not making contact then it is useless.
I agree with all that.

>Everthng that is bonded to the neutral buss becomes an extension to that buss. And if that buss is isolated from its source anything that tries to create a path to ground will become energized.
I agree with that too.

The only thing that I didn't get was that you meant to isolate the baked out earth to the ground rod only.

My point was that if everything is bonded, then it is all equally energized and there is no potential difference to electrougly anyone.

In this case, I will maintain that the earth is not properly bonded as I mentioned before when you brought up the outdoor spigot.

However, bonding the gas line does not create a new hazard if everything including the floor is properly bonded. Every time you come up with a supposed exception, I find something that is not properly bonded in your example.

Fair enough?

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