During my vacation in September - October 2019 in Europe and also stayed for about 1 week in Denmark.
Interesting that they use the type K plug and socket, although most places I visited there use the European Schuko plugs. The K type socket requires an Earth pin. The Schuko plugs have scraping Earth terminals. So no Earth contact is made.
An adapter can be bought but I think that many users won't bother with a $ 20 adapter for a $ 15 toaster from the EU.
One thing I have to say, can't beat the smiley face.
See my short attached video with the findings while there.
Denmark has long traditions of ungrounded installations, just like old US buildings with 3 prong sockets, Then they discovered the need of grounded outlets, and could not go for the same standard as all the surrounding nations do. They did go for a 3 pron plug solution, and later the changed to this 3 prong solution. Both made so most other standards fit without ground. In addition to that all boxes are so small that I feel for the electricians who has so small room for everything. When that is said, the quality of the material/equipment I have seen looks good. GFCI's does protect you....
dsk
(PS we have our weak points here in Norway too DS)
The last time the European Union discussed the issues around plug/socket harmonisation they more or less concluded that the best way forward to allow the CEE 7 family of plugs that fits the Schuko and French type grounded 16 outlets to become the de facto standard across the entire continent.
Only Denmark and Italy (and Switzerland which is non EU) have an alternative system and in both cases, it's just the earthing pin is different, so the majority of appliances with non-grounded plugs will continue to fit without issue.
The proposal was that the non-CEE 7 sockets should only be installed where unavoidable, but that either Schuko or French sockets should be installed in new wiring.
The other proposal was that the BS1363 countries - Ireland, Cyprus and Malta and obviously the UK, but that's now living the EU would just continue as they are, but that the adaptors would be more tightly regulated to allow safe swapping between two plug systems i.e. the 'Rectangular pin system" and the "two round pin system".
So effectively Europe would end up with two acceptable solutions to plugs and sockets, one of which would be CEE 7 and the other BS1363.
There wasn't much movement on any of this stuff since then though and Brexit will have complicated matters further now too.
The general conclusion was that there was no real benefit that outweighs the cost in replacing either BS1363 or Schuko, but that there was a case for phasing out the Danish and Italian systems as they provided no real technical barriers to replacement nor did they provide any advantages that were worth retaining.
As a non-EU country, the Swiss system was not really even discussed.
It would be great with one common standard for all 230V 50Hz countries, but it will not be easy to do. E.g. the Danish wall boxes are to narrow for the German sockets.
I guess on that they landed on the most common sockets used in EU since all are reasonable safe.
We may only guess how the standard had been today if we just should start on scratch. Even voltage and frequency would probably be different. :-)
I didn't expect they were using so many Schuko plug devices in denmark, running ungrounded. That's quite disappointing and a very low safety level for denmark. I wonder what their electrical injury rate is compared to the rest of europe.
Also, the breaker panel in you video is really no masterpiece. 2 Wires in a breaker terminal is usually legal in europe, when the manufacturer of the breaker allows it. But 5 wires in one breaker terminal, that's really just unprofessional. They should have used a single wire going off the breaker and then install a junction box to split to all the other cables. Maybe the buddy of the landlord installed it...
It wouldn't be impossible for Danish manufacturers to produce CEE 7/5 (French) or CEE 7/4 that were compatible with Danish boxes for retrofitting purposes. I guess the recess would be perhaps an issue if they're shallow, in comparison to a flush-flat socket, but there are French designs with relatively shallow boxes too.
Italy's seemingly moving to Schuko by gradual osmosis. The Italian standard seems to be still there, but there were loads of buildings with Schuko sockets installed that weren't hybrid types. From what I gather too most appliances seem to ship with CEE 7 plugs.
I'd nearly prefer the French approach - at least there's a possibility of polarising it and the current generation of socket outlets seem to incorporate mandatory shuttering. There's also a flat version that has a push-in front.
They also seem to be made as a single unit, even if they've clip on facia plates. The design is a lot more like BS1363. Schuko outlets seem to be quite different with the removable front plate that exposes the innards of the socket.
It's going to be interesting to see how Ireland deals with post-Brexit EU as the supply chains will quite likely change towards continental ones, which will result in a lot of appliances arriving with Schuko and CEE 7/X plugs again.
We used to use Schuko decades ago, you'd certainly see plenty of it in the 1960s. However, we standardised on BS1363, which is IS401 plug (IS411 socket) here.
At present there's no real discussion going on about it but, I would assume that if it became problematic we might ultimately shift back.
There are a couple of scenarios where it could become problematic:
1) The UK drifts away from CE and European harmonised electrical standards for appliances. That could result in appliances manufactured for the UK market becoming unmarketable in Ireland. So, we would have to shift to continental supply chains.
2) The BS1363 standard itself could end up incompatible with harmonised European standards, although frankly that's extremely unlikely. The current plan is that we will just maintain it as IS401 / and IS 411 and would get approvals for it via the NSAI here.
I can't really see a situation where the UK wanders off into lax standards, and I would assume that most International manufacturers are likely to continue as normal. The only situations that could perhaps arise is if the UK were to say start accepting some future Chinese standards or harmonising with Australia and NZ and so on.
However most of these things are ultimately coordinated by bodies like the IEC and CENELEC is not an exclusively EU body, although its standards are compulsory within the EU, there are other members e.g. Turkey, Switzerland etc. Even the likes of the USA are associate/observer members.
It'll be interesting to see what happens though!
My personal preference in Ireland would be that if we did switch, it would be to the French CEE 7/5 system - possibility of keeping it polarised and also the contemporary French / Belgian sockets contain mandatory shutters which would keep continuity with standards we've had since the introduction of BS1363.
However, from an ease of standardisation the CEE 7/4 Schuko socket outlets might be more of an open standard and I assume would could still mandate shutters on those.
I find this very interesting, even when we are slightly on the edge of the thread. What socket will be the safest? By my opinion not the Schuko, even when it is pretty safe. The Swiss or new South African looks extremely safe, and polarized. The BS1363 plug with fuse will help to isolate a faulty unit, I see no reason for the switch. On the other hand BS1363 or not exactly small and elegant.
Then we have completely different standards. Powercon looks like a good solution for me :
The new South African plug came from an attempt by the IEC and CENELEC to come up with a harmonised European plug for 230V 50Hz countries, but it was never adopted due to concerns it would cost a fortune and have no net benefit for European consumers.
It's basically a modernised version of the Swiss system, and had the advantage of remaining compatible with 2-pin, 2.5amp CEE 7/16 plugs which are on most small electronics, mobile phone chargers etc while being recessed, and incapable of accepting Schuko/French earthed plugs.
The downside is that it's also incompatible with common European ungrounded 'contour' plugs - i.e what you'd typically find on a vacuum cleaner or similar appliances.
In general I think Schuko and the French system are safe, at least when shuttered. Like BS1363 they're rather too bulky for what they are.
BS1363's switch is entirely optional. It's really only there as a convenience feature, not a safety one. A lot of items e.g. in the kitchen remain permanently plugged in. So, you just switch them off at the switch. It's the same with say my TV/cable box etc or office, I'd just switch it off at the wall, not unplug it and have to dig around to find the plug again to reconnect it.
The only thing mandatory on BS1363 is shutters and sheathed pins. Obviously earth is also mandatory on all items but the issue with huge 3 pin plugs is largely now over come with many devices, particularly mobile phone chargers having a folding pin for the earth (required to open the socket). A lot of these devices are no longer really any bulkier than 2-pin CEE 7/16 Europlug equivalents.
Samsung mobile phone charger with pin folded - just lift up and insert. These have proven extremely reliable and are common now image: https://bit.ly/390CDOz
If BS1363 had that configuration with the earth pin close down like that all the time, it would be a FAR more practical connector. It could have been done that way with modern materials, but they were really designed with a big old bakelite, rewirable plug in mind.
Here in Norway we live in a house from the 80-ies, and we have these in all rooms where it is no grounded installations like pipes or concrete floors who might lead to ground. Pretty equal to danish ungrounded, but her we have a floating ground and no Neutral.
1) Polarisation is mainly an issue with ES floor and table lamps. Most of these have a Euro plug, which isn't polarised in any type of socket. 2) There are non-polarised CEE 7/5 sockets, or more precisely, mirrored double sockets with the earth pins in the centre. 3) One could easily design sockets that accept either CEE 7/4, 7/7 and IEC 60906 or 7/6, 7/7 and IEC 60906 plugs for an easy transition 4) The biggest issue trying to replace BS1363 with anything else is the unfortunate fact that BS1363 sockets can be on circuits up to 32 amps and rely on fuses in the plugs for short-circuit protection. On the other hand, Ireland requires any electrical work to be carried out by professionals, with hefty fines of up to 6000 Euros for DIY work, so safely upgrading existing installations doesn't seem impossible. Ring final circuits would have to be split into two radials, radials could be downgraded, provided they aren't too large. 5) Shuttered Schuko sockets are readily available and becoming more and more common. Some EU countries already require them everywhere, others in places like kindergartens.
On a side note regarding circuit overcurrent protection: more careful Germans tend to worry about the capacity of Schuko sockets to carry the rated 16 amps for extended periods of time (some claim manufacturers only rate them for 1 hour at 16 amps and 10 amps continuously but I haven't found any reliable sources for that, many people get seriously confused by the historic 10-/16~ rating) and especially moderate overloads, as a B or C16 MCB can survive 1.45 times its rated current for up to an hour. The French on the other hand happily install identical sockets on C20 MCBs, according to one source even C25.
Electric storage heaters are the common way to heat watere in Scandinavia, here in Norway we have had pretty much problems with those socets on heaters with more than 1500W elements, so new storage heters are not alowed to have schuco plugs unless the effect is less than 1500W (we have had 2kW storage heater in my home since 1988, and never had a problem)
By my opinion, it is not the plug and socket who is the problem, but for the most how the wire is terminated in 1) The plug, and 2) The socket. I keep an eye on such things and on 2 washing macines, I felt hot plugs, changed the molded plug to a new one, and the problem was solved. It seems to be important to use end ferrules.
TexasRanger: Historically polarisation wouldn't have made much difference for lamps here as they were all bayonet fittings anyway - i.e. two springy pins at the bottom of the bulb holder and no screw contacts. ES fittings have only become common in recent years, but the BC fittings are still the de facto norm.
For whatever reason, Irish electricians tended not to use rings as much as their UK counterparts. It's permitted, but not as common. You'll typically find most socket circuits are on B20 breakers. We also no longer allow rings in kitchens due to the cluster of high wattage appliances likely to be encountered. So, you're supposed to install at least 3 radials.
Schuko's still mentioned in Irish standards as IS-180 and the modern references are just a referral to CEE 7 standards. The original Irish standard documents were quite interesting as they describe in considerable detail how to test Schuko plugs i.e. overloading them with higher amperages for considerable periods of time and even dropping them from a standard height onto various surface types.
The main barrier to change here would be just the huge inconvenience of it. Also, BS1363 sockets are flat and require very shallow wall boxes relative to Schuko. The flush versions are much tidier looking and don't catch fluff, grease etc. The plugs are rather bulky however, although as I was mentioning they are getting slimmer due to recent amendments to the standard that allows for folding pins and smaller plug bodies.
The main risk we have is the UK wandering off into some completely non-compliant standards. It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that they might say start accepting products certified in Mainland China if that were part of some trade deal etc etc. ...
As for IEC 60906
From what I read, the main objectors to it were the UK and Germany, both of whom made technical arguments against it. So, it never progressed in Europe.
You certainly could make a Schuko or French socket with an extra hole that would accommodate IEC 60906 in the medium term. It would just be like a neater version of the Italian sockets that do similar, as AFAIK IEC 60906 would fit inside an existing Schuko outlet.
You could also do a BS1363 socket with IEC 60906 sockets on a double plate. For example, this page shows BS1363 13amp and BS546 2amp sockets with local fusing on on a single double plate. There's no particular reason you couldn't do similar with a 16 amp fuse for a IEC 60906 socket.
I would assume in Ireland we won't do anything unless it becomes absolutely apparent that using BS1363 is more inconvenient than switching back to Schuko. However, in the 1960s and 70s and well into the early 90s it was common enough to get items delivered with continental plugs and just cut them off and fit Irish ones. That could once again become the norm.
There's no way we'd adopt IEC 60906 unless the whole of the EU was doing it. It would be absolutely no advantage to do it on our own. We'd just be jumping from BS1363 to a system that was still incompatible with grounded European plugs.
It seems a bit of a weird choice for South Africa, given the size of that market. CEE 7 would have made more sense.
On page 1, Powercon was mentioned. Although it will surprise you and had surprised me in the past, Powercon is not intended to be operated under load!
IEC C13 slides out too easy, for my personal feel. C19 just slightly better. I live in a Schuko country and have experienced hot molded plugs myself. In case the outlet is good, then It's actually the quality of the plug and the way of how the wires are connected inside. I replaced numerous plugs of 2000W heaters with proper self-wirable plugs, and those get barely warm. Ferrules are a must when doing that, and I also scrape the copper strands clean with a knife in such cases, before I crimp on the ferrules. Cheapo PVC cables release substances that turn the copper strands matte or even black, and that increases resistance to the ferrule or terminal.
As I was told, the original Schuko design was intended for "10 Amp continuous, 16 Amp short-time". This is why we have continuous loads like space heaters up to 10 Amp, and then dishwashers and washing machines with 10 and 13 Amp nameplates, and small instant water heaters that go under the sink and will only be used for very short times, with 16 Amp.
We do have an unlucky constellation with fusing though. The standard German outlet is fused at 16 amp. Depending on the manufacturing tolerances of the breaker, it will allow up to 20 Amp continuous load and never-trip. Now if a non-engineer runs two power appliances, like 2 space heaters, or a washing machine and a dryer, on one multi outlet power strip, it will draw 17 to 19 Amp total and most likely never trip the breaker, but surely overheat the outlet and the power strip. This does happen and is a known fire source. Most power devices like that nowadays have "do not use an Extension cord or power strip" in the manual, but who reads that...
That's why german electricial contractors who THINK will put 13A or 10A breakers in the panel for most outlets, and only put 16A for dedicated outlets like a dishwasher single outlet. But those breakers cost a bit more, and most will just put 16 Amp for everything and not even really check the distance to the outlet...
Here in Norway our regulations are based on the same as the German. If we use cords with more than approx 7 strands we should use ferrules, the most common breakers are 16A here too, but with a minimum of 2.5 mm^2 Cu wires, and if the run are long or the wires are located with limited cooling, the wires has to be thicker. 10A minimum 1.5 mm^2 Max voltage drop allowed from fuse to last outlet at 100% load there is 4%.
The outlets are still as you mentioned not made for high permanent load.
we had a periode of time where it was allowed to calculate voltage drop and use a tougher load like 13A on 1.5 or even 20A on shorter 2.5 wires, but those houses tended to burn down!
In the old days before PC and calculators and with fuses, the rule was 10A and 1.5mm^2 and 15A and 2.5mm^2
Last edited by dsk; 02/26/2012:01 PM. Reason: adding tekst
As I was told, the original Schuko design was intended for "10 Amp continuous, 16 Amp short-time". This is why we have continuous loads like space heaters up to 10 Amp, and then dishwashers and washing machines with 10 and 13 Amp nameplates, and small instant water heaters that go under the sink and will only be used for very short times, with 16 Amp.
I keep reading that, yet it's all hearsay. I do know two things: 1) Schuko is officially rated for 16 A AC or 10 A DC, which can be written as either 10-/16~ or just 10/16 2) Some very old Schuko sockets are only marked 10 A/250 V.
I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the alleged 10 A continuous/16 A short-term rating is a simple misunderstanding of the abbreviated DC/AC rating.
When I went to Germany for the 1st time in 2006 visiting relatives, we went into France briefly & had the opportunity to view the French outlets, & have to admit liked them better then the German model.
DSK, Those aren't mains-rated connectors, they look like a copy of the Neutrik Speakon connectors used for PA Amplifiers. Even the Neutrik ones state that they should only be used on 100V speaker systems.
DSK, Those aren't mains-rated connectors, they look like a copy of the Neutrik Speakon connectors used for PA Amplifiers. Even the Neutrik ones state that they should only be used on 100V speaker systems.
Neutrik Powercon is rated for mains voltage but mustn't be plugged/unplugged under load.
I don’t think we will ever see a radical departure from CEE 7, but just a slide towards either Schuko or the Belgian/French design being the de facto EU norm in the Denmark and Italy. The costs and inconvenience are too high and the standard is well developed and robust.
The mandating of RCDs has really eliminated many of the serious risks around grounding, so I’m sure the Danish system can just survive. Most grounded major appliances also don’t tend to get moved around much.
The bigger issue might be with growing online retail. It’s becoming a slight issue here where appliances are arriving with CEE 7/7 plugs and being used long term with adaptors.
We already have a system of converter plugs, which the continental plug is fitted inside, effectively turning them into BS1363 fused plugs, and they can only be removed with the use of a tool. These are intended to be permanent. They’re pretty good solutions when fitted on on CEE 7/16 (Europlug) and even CEE 7/17 (non grounded plugs used on say vacuums and hairdryers) if a but bulky, however on grounded Schuko, especially the where the cable exit is at a right angle, they’re just huge, bulky and too unwieldy and it’s better to simply change the plug.
I honestly don’t see BS1363 being changed here. The amount of hassle involved simply isn’t worth it and as a system it is very solid and well established. You don’t ever find anything else on the wall and there’s no ambiguity about grounding or polarity as the legacy two pin plugs are long, long gone and backwards compatibility was deliberately eliminated by the current standard.
We’ve a slight issue with CE marking, but only if manufacturers no longer seek it for smart plugs, phone chargers etc. It is being replaced in the UK with a UKCA mark since Brexit, but effectively it’s the same thing anyway. It’s very likely most of those devices will continue to be CE approved anyway.
The issue is Ireland can’t import non CE devices, so we might have a problem in years ahead with some of those plug in devices, unless we can get a derogation for them, which to be quite honest would be a lot less hassle than changing millions of sockets…
The UK may ultimately end up just accepting CE regardless as I have a feeling the approach they’re taking is just going to become rather unnecessarily expensive and is just a flag waving exercise and they’re not leaving CENELEC. My sense is they’ll probably in the end just cooperate in technical matters like Switzerland or Norway does. There’s politics and there’s pragmatic reality.
I keep reading that, yet it's all hearsay. I do know two things: 1) Schuko is officially rated for 16 A AC or 10 A DC, which can be written as either 10-/16~ or just 10/16 2) Some very old Schuko sockets are only marked 10 A/250 V.
I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the alleged 10 A continuous/16 A short-term rating is a simple misunderstanding of the abbreviated DC/AC rating.
A 10A socket will often survive 16A for a short time (not-uncommonly an hour or two, at least for a one-off test), provided there are no other points of elevated resistance (poor terminations, corrosion etc.); although by the same logic, a 16A socket should briefly survive around 25A. I've tested rewireable Australian plugs and sockets (normally rated at 10A, but the only difference from the 15A version is earth pin width) up to 24A (with 1.5mm^2 flex as standard for 15A) without melting down.
I recently saw one YouTube comment referring to people as "idiots" for running 3kW heaters through BS 1363 sockets; harsh much? Not only does that diminish the very meaning of the word "idiot", but then why are 3kW workshop heaters still readily available with a 13A plug? (It was claimed that the sockets are no longer built for sustained full load, since 3kW heaters became uncommon in the household.) Some vendors do recommend hard-wiring via a 20A fused spur for "long term" use, but I gather that the fuse may be more to blame than the plug itself. (I saw one claim of BS 1362 fuses only being rated for 1,000 hours at full load, which to me seems pitiful... And under moderate overloads, say 20A, the fuse can get hot enough to melt thermoplastic plugs.)
As you may gather, I have a significant aversion to "cop-outs" around the extent of usage; observing their semi-regular delivery after-the-fact in attempts to downplay product defects, I only accept differentiation between better and worse "grades" of product where the usage difference (and the difference in manufacturing cost!) is substantive enough to justify it.
Anyhow, in my experience competently-wired Australian plugs will normally remain cool to the touch while passing 10A (as can be expected from an essentially 15A design). Molded plugs are as iffy as they are everywhere else (frameless NEMA types notwithstanding).
Here we have schuko sockets, and our water (storage) heater is plugged in to one of those, it is a 2 kW load, and that has been working well for many years, but if I buy a new one today, I had to skip the plug, and have fixed wiring trough a safety switch. That is because that sometimes it is getting hot, In those cases I have seen it has been the molded plug that is the problem. .. so OK it is safer with the new requirement.
A 10A socket will often survive 16A for a short time (not-uncommonly an hour or two, at least for a one-off test), provided there are no other points of elevated resistance (poor terminations, corrosion etc.); although by the same logic, a 16A socket should briefly survive around 25A. I've tested rewireable Australian plugs and sockets (normally rated at 10A, but the only difference from the 15A version is earth pin width) up to 24A (with 1.5mm^2 flex as standard for 15A) without melting down.
This sort of attitude is what starts house fires, yes it is a 10A socket-outlet, but what size is the wiring in behind it, how many other loads are on it and what size and type of protection is afforded to the circuit at its supplying switchboard?
Longrunner, You aren't a qualified electrician, you have not sat the regulation and theory exams that state that your advice means anything. Once you do that, I'd be more than open to your opinions. Until then.........
I was NOT advising that anyone exceed the rating in use. I only apply such overloads as controlled, supervised tests; I figured this could work as a possible in-principle explanation for a split long-term/short-term current rating, but I don't think that actually applies to Schuko anyway.
Incidentally, it's my father (who was an electrician) who made an adapter with a 10A plug and 15A socket; I disbanded it. I'm the last person you'll find defending double-adapters, I never buy them myself; and I test that the circuit breaker works in nearly every power-board I obtain.
Most things should be tested at much higher loads than the rating. That is the nature of testing. I will say all receptacles in the US are not created equal. We have several grades of the 15 amp 5-15 receptacle and all carry the NRTL stamp of approval but some are marginal at best at 80% of the rated load (the NEC imposed limit for cord and plug equipment) and others would handle far greater than the 15a they are rated for. As in most things, you get what you are willing to pay for. I know I had problems with the receptacles installed in this house when I moved in and I bought a big box of commercial grade receptacles and switches. After an afternoon of screwdriver work my problems went away. Some were just old, others were probably junk when they were installed.
DS)![[Linked Image from ]]( https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1vl7GaJfvK1RjSspfq6zzXFXa5/100pcs-lot-NAC3FCA-Speakon-Plug-Socket-3-PIN-Powercon-Plug-Jack-Connector-20A-250V-AC-Power.jpg)
![[Linked Image from media.rs-online.com]](https://media.rs-online.com/t_large/F7769144-01.jpg)
![[Linked Image from elsjekk-as.no]](https://elsjekk-as.no/images/Blogg/varmtvannsbreder_brann.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/EjIAAOSw9-hciG9J/s-l640.jpg)
Not only does that diminish the very meaning of the word "idiot", but then why are 3kW workshop heaters still readily available with a 13A plug? (It was claimed that the sockets are no longer built for sustained full load, since 3kW heaters became uncommon in the household.) Some vendors do recommend hard-wiring via a 20A fused spur for "long term" use, but I gather that the fuse may be more to blame than the plug itself. (I saw one claim of BS 1362 fuses only being rated for 1,000 hours at full load, which to me seems pitiful... And under moderate overloads, say 20A, the fuse can get hot enough to melt thermoplastic plugs.)
