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Danish type K Sockets #220465 01/23/20 03:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 859
R
RODALCO Offline OP
Member
During my vacation in September - October 2019 in Europe and also stayed for about 1 week in Denmark.

Interesting that they use the type K plug and socket, although most places I visited there use the European Schuko plugs.
The K type socket requires an Earth pin. The Schuko plugs have scraping Earth terminals. So no Earth contact is made.

An adapter can be bought but I think that many users won't bother with a $ 20 adapter for a $ 15 toaster from the EU.

One thing I have to say, can't beat the smiley face.

See my short attached video with the findings while there.

https://youtu.be/sqEkR2RhjVQ



Attached Files 2020-01-23_20-18-05.jpg
Last edited by RODALCO; 01/23/20 03:43 AM. Reason: add in more info

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Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220472 01/26/20 04:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 108
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dsk Offline
Member
Denmark has long traditions of ungrounded installations, just like old US buildings with 3 prong sockets, Then they discovered the need of grounded outlets, and could not go for the same standard as all the surrounding nations do. They did go for a 3 pron plug solution, and later the changed to this 3 prong solution. Both made so most other standards fit without ground. In addition to that all boxes are so small that I feel for the electricians who has so small room for everything. When that is said, the quality of the material/equipment I have seen looks good. GFCI's does protect you....

dsk

(PS we have our weak points here in Norway too rolleyes DS)

Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220477 01/28/20 05:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,250
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djk Offline
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The last time the European Union discussed the issues around plug/socket harmonisation they more or less concluded that the best way forward to allow the CEE 7 family of plugs that fits the Schuko and French type grounded 16 outlets to become the de facto standard across the entire continent.

Only Denmark and Italy (and Switzerland which is non EU) have an alternative system and in both cases, it's just the earthing pin is different, so the majority of appliances with non-grounded plugs will continue to fit without issue.

The proposal was that the non-CEE 7 sockets should only be installed where unavoidable, but that either Schuko or French sockets should be installed in new wiring.

The other proposal was that the BS1363 countries - Ireland, Cyprus and Malta and obviously the UK, but that's now living the EU would just continue as they are, but that the adaptors would be more tightly regulated to allow safe swapping between two plug systems i.e. the 'Rectangular pin system" and the "two round pin system".

So effectively Europe would end up with two acceptable solutions to plugs and sockets, one of which would be CEE 7 and the other BS1363.

There wasn't much movement on any of this stuff since then though and Brexit will have complicated matters further now too.

The general conclusion was that there was no real benefit that outweighs the cost in replacing either BS1363 or Schuko, but that there was a case for phasing out the Danish and Italian systems as they provided no real technical barriers to replacement nor did they provide any advantages that were worth retaining.

As a non-EU country, the Swiss system was not really even discussed.

Last edited by djk; 01/28/20 05:14 PM.
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220482 01/30/20 04:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 108
D
dsk Offline
Member
It would be great with one common standard for all 230V 50Hz countries, but it will not be easy to do. E.g. the Danish wall boxes are to narrow for the German sockets.

I guess on that they landed on the most common sockets used in EU since all are reasonable safe.

We may only guess how the standard had been today if we just should start on scratch. Even voltage and frequency would probably be different. :-)

Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220484 01/31/20 04:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 56
A
andey Offline
Member
I didn't expect they were using so many Schuko plug devices in denmark, running ungrounded. That's quite disappointing and a very low safety level for denmark. I wonder what their electrical injury rate is compared to the rest of europe.

Also, the breaker panel in you video is really no masterpiece.
2 Wires in a breaker terminal is usually legal in europe, when the manufacturer of the breaker allows it.
But 5 wires in one breaker terminal, that's really just unprofessional.
They should have used a single wire going off the breaker and then install a junction box to split to all the other cables.
Maybe the buddy of the landlord installed it...

Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220485 01/31/20 09:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,250
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djk Offline
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It wouldn't be impossible for Danish manufacturers to produce CEE 7/5 (French) or CEE 7/4 that were compatible with Danish boxes for retrofitting purposes. I guess the recess would be perhaps an issue if they're shallow, in comparison to a flush-flat socket, but there are French designs with relatively shallow boxes too.

Italy's seemingly moving to Schuko by gradual osmosis. The Italian standard seems to be still there, but there were loads of buildings with Schuko sockets installed that weren't hybrid types. From what I gather too most appliances seem to ship with CEE 7 plugs.

I'd nearly prefer the French approach - at least there's a possibility of polarising it and the current generation of socket outlets seem to incorporate mandatory shuttering. There's also a flat version that has a push-in front.

https://www.legrand.fr/catalogue/prise/prise-de-courant-avec-terre-celiane-surface-avec-plaque-blanc

They also seem to be made as a single unit, even if they've clip on facia plates. The design is a lot more like BS1363. Schuko outlets seem to be quite different with the removable front plate that exposes the innards of the socket.

It's going to be interesting to see how Ireland deals with post-Brexit EU as the supply chains will quite likely change towards continental ones, which will result in a lot of appliances arriving with Schuko and CEE 7/X plugs again.

We used to use Schuko decades ago, you'd certainly see plenty of it in the 1960s. However, we standardised on BS1363, which is IS401 plug (IS411 socket) here.

At present there's no real discussion going on about it but, I would assume that if it became problematic we might ultimately shift back.

There are a couple of scenarios where it could become problematic:

1) The UK drifts away from CE and European harmonised electrical standards for appliances. That could result in appliances manufactured for the UK market becoming unmarketable in Ireland. So, we would have to shift to continental supply chains.

2) The BS1363 standard itself could end up incompatible with harmonised European standards, although frankly that's extremely unlikely. The current plan is that we will just maintain it as IS401 / and IS 411 and would get approvals for it via the NSAI here.

I can't really see a situation where the UK wanders off into lax standards, and I would assume that most International manufacturers are likely to continue as normal. The only situations that could perhaps arise is if the UK were to say start accepting some future Chinese standards or harmonising with Australia and NZ and so on.

However most of these things are ultimately coordinated by bodies like the IEC and CENELEC is not an exclusively EU body, although its standards are compulsory within the EU, there are other members e.g. Turkey, Switzerland etc. Even the likes of the USA are associate/observer members.

It'll be interesting to see what happens though!

My personal preference in Ireland would be that if we did switch, it would be to the French CEE 7/5 system - possibility of keeping it polarised and also the contemporary French / Belgian sockets contain mandatory shutters which would keep continuity with standards we've had since the introduction of BS1363.

However, from an ease of standardisation the CEE 7/4 Schuko socket outlets might be more of an open standard and I assume would could still mandate shutters on those.

Last edited by djk; 01/31/20 09:38 AM.
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: djk] #220486 01/31/20 10:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 108
D
dsk Offline
Member
I find this very interesting, even when we are slightly on the edge of the thread. What socket will be the safest?
By my opinion not the Schuko, even when it is pretty safe. The Swiss or new South African looks extremely safe, and polarized. The BS1363 plug with fuse will help to isolate a faulty unit, I see no reason for the switch. On the other hand BS1363 or not exactly small and elegant.

Then we have completely different standards. Powercon looks like a good solution for me :[Linked Image from ]

Maybe to difficult to handle?

dsk

Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220487 01/31/20 11:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 108
D
dsk Offline
Member
Maybe the IEC C19 connector are more suitable, non locking, not to big and polarized?
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...783WsYCU5ldUcZ-2RH5P5sdFN33aTLROFqqW_yM4[/img]
[Linked Image from media.rs-online.com]

dsk

Last edited by dsk; 01/31/20 11:07 AM.
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: RODALCO] #220488 01/31/20 01:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,250
D
djk Offline
Member
The new South African plug came from an attempt by the IEC and CENELEC to come up with a harmonised European plug for 230V 50Hz countries, but it was never adopted due to concerns it would cost a fortune and have no net benefit for European consumers.

It's basically a modernised version of the Swiss system, and had the advantage of remaining compatible with 2-pin, 2.5amp CEE 7/16 plugs which are on most small electronics, mobile phone chargers etc while being recessed, and incapable of accepting Schuko/French earthed plugs.

The downside is that it's also incompatible with common European ungrounded 'contour' plugs - i.e what you'd typically find on a vacuum cleaner or similar appliances.

In general I think Schuko and the French system are safe, at least when shuttered. Like BS1363 they're rather too bulky for what they are.

BS1363's switch is entirely optional. It's really only there as a convenience feature, not a safety one. A lot of items e.g. in the kitchen remain permanently plugged in. So, you just switch them off at the switch. It's the same with say my TV/cable box etc or office, I'd just switch it off at the wall, not unplug it and have to dig around to find the plug again to reconnect it.

The only thing mandatory on BS1363 is shutters and sheathed pins. Obviously earth is also mandatory on all items but the issue with huge 3 pin plugs is largely now over come with many devices, particularly mobile phone chargers having a folding pin for the earth (required to open the socket). A lot of these devices are no longer really any bulkier than 2-pin CEE 7/16 Europlug equivalents.

Samsung mobile phone charger with pin folded - just lift up and insert. These have proven extremely reliable and are common now image: https://bit.ly/390CDOz

If BS1363 had that configuration with the earth pin close down like that all the time, it would be a FAR more practical connector. It could have been done that way with modern materials, but they were really designed with a big old bakelite, rewirable plug in mind.

Last edited by djk; 01/31/20 01:42 PM.
Re: Danish type K Sockets [Re: djk] #220489 02/02/20 10:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 108
D
dsk Offline
Member
Here in Norway we live in a house from the 80-ies, and we have these in all rooms where it is no grounded installations like pipes or concrete floors who might lead to ground. Pretty equal to danish ungrounded, but her we have a floating ground and no Neutral.

Attached Files 2020-02-02 11.49.00.jpg
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