ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues sec cable code conflict

HI
i really must be in the twilight zone with the local inspectors or they just really want to mess with me, so i asked the older inspector if i could just put a 200 amp single breaker outdoor right under the only meter on the pole (main conductor) and then everything is protected down the line, treat it like feeders, the 3 wire cable is there and travels 50 feet to the house, he said yes but... that wont solve my terminal box in the basement, he said as soon as it comes into the terminal box, you have to 4 wire it over to each panel from there.

i cant do 4 wire from the future breaker box on the pole to the terminal box in the basement, i would have to dig up all old wire, way to much work, so as long as a separate the neutral and the ground in the new terminal box in the basement and make it all 4 wire in that box and then feed wire to each panel 4 wire, i should be ok and in code right? then do i need pvc for physical protection or just as long as its under sheetrock????this is the easy way for me to do this. comments please!

Why not put the service disconnect on the house. Then your service lateral going to the pole will be on the line side of the main bonding jumper and 3 wire is kosher. You could even put it inside where your terminal box is now. Best is back to back with the LB but they usually let you get away with a couple feet of SE inside if it is the shortest practical route.

greg,
that was the whole problem to begin with, i wanted to go inside from the lb right next to the terminal box but the se cable would have to be 6 feet long. way to long. so the idea was a 200 amp breaker right under the meter, well i just found out that the main line from the pole runs to a 200 amp transfer switch in a out building that is used to switch a generator or main conductor from the pole. (there is no generator installed) and next to the transfer switch is a terminal box that feeds the house and 2 small buildings. all lines are 2 feet under ground. so this changes a few things.

i thought the main line from the meter went right to the house, no it does not. its fed from the building that has a transfer switch in it and there is no room next to the transfer switch it without tearing it all out and redoing it, so my solution is to just put a 200 amp breaker under the meter and then all lines are protected. there is 3 wire 200 amp direct burial cable that runs to each building, would i have to do anything else beside just install a 200 amp breaker at the pole to meet code?

thank you!

You still have the problem that anything on the load side of the main bonding jumper is a feeder (4 wires) and the bonding jumper needs to be in the service disconnect enclosure.
Tell us more about the transfer equipment. Is it creating a Separately Derived System (switching the neutral).
That still may be where you want to set the service disconnect even if it is on the outside wall. You still have the 4 wire feeder problem tho.

ok so here is the wires etc. as they are now,
the pole has a meter on it, right under that is a 200 amp line that is in pvc and leads to a 200 amp transfer switch about 100 feet from the pole, (cutler hammer/eaton DT363URK, the switch is a simple on off on, 3 wires go in this switch, and then in the middle position it is off, move the handle up its then connected to the generator, move the handle down its connected to the line from the pole. there no nothing hooked to the generator side at all. right next to the transfer switch is a midwest electric terminal box, that box that has a wire from the transfer switch, then the terminal box feeds 2 buildings each with100 amp breaker boxes, and the house 20 amp breaker box.

its all 3 wire, and was installed over 10 years ago, there is no 4 wire anyplace. i thought about doing the main disconnect outside the main building ( where the pole power line goes and the transfer switch is) but if its under the meter on the pole lit would be so much more easy. all is a 3 wire set up. i know that if the pole breaker has a main disconnect then its all 3 wire feeder downline. this was a common set up for solar power a few years back in my area. so i cant dig up all this wire and replace it with a 4 wire, the install was code at the time, yes i know but it was. it works fine and causes no problems.
so how do i make it work with a pole mounted breaker disconnect? i have seen so many electric coop drawings on line for excatly what i am describing. meter- pole mount breaker box, then feeds the house etc.
,
please give me your iinput.

thank you

OK The code did allow 3 wire feeders to separate buildings back in the olden days. It was probably 250.24 in those days (Clinton administration). If you treat the feeder entrance like a service (Ground electrodes, bond the neutral, no other metal paths etc) you are legal under that code. If your AHJ will still let you keep that grandfather around you can stay with the 3 wire to the building(s). You still need another disconnect where it enters each building. Once you have that, standard wiring methods for feeders, taps and branch circuits should be OK. Physical protection usually ends up being in the eye of the AHJ so we can't say what the conduit requirements will be.
I would be OK with SE cable for a feeder.
These are not really service conductors since you have a 200a breaker upstream (on the pole or in the outbuilding with the transfer switch). You do bump into 225.31 about feeding one building through another and that requires a disconnect at each building entrance.
I see his concern that you have a feeder inside the building that is not disconnected with the local disconnect.
You can make that go away by taking the garage feeder off the line side of the 200 a breaker in the house. This is a feeder tap, so you use feed through lugs on the bus if the panel board supports them. The other option would be to add another disconnect for the garage feeder at the entrance to the house. If you can do this in the house panel it would be easier.

ok i ran what you said past him, we went out to the pole and he said ok look, the rural coop says has a meter and a 200 amp service here, so you can add a 200 amp breaker as a disconnect right below the meter. the meter box is grounded into this wire that runs down the pole into the earth. ( i was wondering why he was saying this) then you just have a 3 wire feeder ok? i said yes. ok then he said we dont have any other metal conductive paths do we? i said no. he said ok old code but safe. got it? i said yes. then he said ok lets look at all 5 buildings. first the generator shed (where the transfer switch is and the first terminal box). he said ok simple switch, then it goes right into a terminal box and a breaker box for the first feed to this building right? i said yes, then he said ok the switch is inside but it is a non fused disconnect. so you have a main breaker box, thats one disconnect and the transfer switch that another disconnect. they both are as the wire enters into the building so were still in code got it? i said yes. ok then 4 other buildings is fed from this first terminal box and each has no conductive paths but the wire buried 24 inches in sch 40 conduit right? i said yes, ok then he said each building has a breaker box and a breaker in that box as your main disconnect correct? i said yes.

ok then thats code, now lets go to the house, there is a wire that goes in the house and feeds a terminal box correct?
i said yes. this is where he questions me more..

he does not like a feeder wire unprotected even if its pole protected, so he said some stuff is grandfathered in, so he said do you really need 100 amps in a garage? i said not really? he said if you dont, do a 60 amp breaker in the 200 amp box fed it through the wall and a mini box in the garage and call it done. you dont need a terminal box inside at all. your box is older and does not have feeder lugs, but if you want a full 100 amp box in the garage then you need a stand alone breaker/disconnect right after the terminal box even if your garage breaker box is only 8 feet away.

i said its all feeder wires, he said yes but what protects the wire out of the terminal box and going 8 feet into another building? i said ok so wire into the terminal box feed the main box right next to it, then a single breaker and feed the garage breaker box? he said yes. if you can find a 100 amp breaker instead of a 60 amp that fits into your main 200 amp box your fine, then feed your other box in the garage and save lots of work. ok so does this all meet code? there are no feed through lugs on the old main box. but he didnt say what protection for in the walls for se cable leading to each box. i was going to use sc40 not 80 but any ideas on not using any? its all behind sheet rock. and he never said if to bond the box to the neutral/ground bar. but all other boxes are already.

all there ahj said different things, but this old guy seems to have more sense.

so comments please!!

forgot to ask see any problem with running (2) 100 amp breakers in the main house box to feed garage and then one to feed apartment above garage? i know you can go above the box rating , since its 200 amp.

You can do it but I might want to see a load calc.
What is going in the garage? 15KW of toaster wire heat would certainly ring a bell. If you are just talking about a dryer and power tools I would not be as concerned for a regular dwelling. If this is all gas heat appliances it would not be as troubling at all

in the garage is propane heater, 6 led lights and a fa, garage door opener, all under 30 amps if that.
the apartment under 60 amps total. furnace and ac unit, i didnt check locked rotor amps on motor but motors under 1/2 hp.
but i get no answer about does if 100 amp feeder wire has to be in pvc conduit behind wall or just wire holders? its just like running nm under sheet rock right? i know its bigger. whats the norm in your area for doing this??