ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Make sure to get permits

If you want to go somewhere that doesn't have building codes there are plenty of places out west but it might be hard finding work. With no oversight any handyman can call himself an electrician.

"If you want to go..."

Ahh, the old 'love it or leave it' canard. You've got it exactly backwards.

It WAS without ....until some (usually) well-meaning noobs figured a way to add their pet rules. What's important to note is that it was the regulatory advocates who wanted to change things- not the free men.

Cancel "was." It still IS. Every three years we're presented with a new NEC - and the book isn't getting any smaller. What is a new edition but more changes?

If you want to play the 'love it or leave it" game, might I submit the ones desiring change leave. There are plenty of places where one can join his comrades in regulating everything.

A more constructive approach might be to adopt what works, and discard what doesn't.

It's also necessary to remind folks who live in the heart of the bureaucracy that their view isn't the norm.

Good heavens, this very thread has a reply where the poster seems to think it's normal for a government inspector to sign off on a house sale- something that was unheard of, even in New Jersey, at the beginning of this millennium. Yet our Jersey poster still struts forth, like a missionary to the savages, blithely unable to see that the rest of us do just fine without his gospel- or that he might do better himself.

How many examples do we need, to prove the irrelevancy of these intrusive governments? A few examples:
- The country does fine with Romex and PVC, a detail Chicago can't admit;
- The country does fine with readily accessible black pipe, no matter that the D.C. area forbids its' sale to the unlicensed;
- "Gun control" is another area where the heavily regulated suffer, yet are unable to admit the successes in the less regulated areas;
- I fail to see anything positive from fragmented trade licensing. While California might assert that their licensing is somehow 'better' than Chicago's, I just can't find any differences in the work performed.

"With no oversight ..."

An interesting comment, worthy of it's own thread.

Let me put it this way ... I've heard all manner of comments over the years, to the effect that "my doctor / lawyer is the best in his field ..." Really? How does the speaker know? After all, they all have the same licenses.

I've never seen the "Consumer Reports" issue that compared Dr. Welby to his peers, and ranked him. I must have missed the "Forbes 500" issue that listed law firms.

Implicit in regulation is that every additional rule has the unintended effect of making things easier for the outlaw. Call me a dreamer, but I don't think we write rules so we can punish the law abiding.

Reno,

There are many EC's out there that do very good work, and if all the EC's were like them, I would have or need a job.
As for my foreign country of NJ, Yeah, this state gets a little (Lot) out of control on a lot of items. The states answer to our complaints would be if you don't like this state, you can always move out. ( Though I think you have to pay a tax on leaving this state too.)

Also around here a lot of illegal built basements in codo assoc. are turned in by a neighbor. They are one of the firsts to drop a dime on their neighbor. It is the "If I need a permit, why don't they?" attitude.

Last item is that a lot of realtors around here also check on "finished" basement. Too many times the owner sells a house and moves out, then the realtor is left holding the bag and trying to get a new buyer, and trying to get old permits closed out.

Reno I can argue your side as well. This is just not the place.
The point is, the US has places that has people who think like you and I support their right to do it but the sad fact is the people vote for these rules in most metro areas and we are stuck with them.

One of my observations is that people move away from the city to "get away from it all" then they want to bring it all with them.

The day when the Libertarian Party gets more than one percent of the votes will be the day people are starting to change their mind. They usually get my vote.

Until that time, inspectors need to remember 90.4 gives them the power to make reasonable accommodations if a particular rule is ridiculous an a particular situation and bending it will not create an unsafe condition.

Libertarian? What's that?

Neighbors turning each other in... no surprise there. Whether here or Afghanistan, folks are always quite ready to manipulate the system to their advantage. Example: The Steel Pipe makers' stuffing the ballot box at the NEC conventions- and the NFPA quite happy with them doing it.

I'm pretty sure a society where everyone secretly informs on each other is not 'free.' Blame the Nuns in Catholic school: survivors of both Stalin and Hitler, they spoke in horror of a society where even children informed on their parents.

I'll challenge the idea that people 'vote for these rules.' Even what procedures we have are being pushed aside these days, as 'emergency' actions. Whether the matter be firearms, health control, or the NEC, the system is determined to operate without your consent.

Indeed,as we sit, the Supreme Court is set to rule on yet another regulatory confiscation case- a matter that I thought had been decisively settled years ago.

90.4? There are two issues citing 90.4.

The first is that the NFPA sends out the troops every code cycle, demanding the NEC be adopted without amendment or exception. The claim is the same: Aren't you opening yourself up to liability if you question the combined wisdom of all the real experts? In this environment, just try to ask for a ruling that's not supported by a specific reference.

The other problem is that the NEC is quite happy to ignore Article 90. They certainly stopped limiting their scope years ago.

The realtor left holding the bag? How does that happen? The realtor is but a sales agent. He is shielded from any liability by both contract and statute. If he buys his own listing, isn't that a conflict of interest? I'm not likely to have much sympathy for the realtor.

Getting back on point,we are still completely ignorant that anything was wrong with the heater installation, or even that a permit was required. There's nowhere near enough information to claim an inspection would have changed anything.

Blame the reporter for a bad story. Blame the OP for turning a leap of logic into a leap of faith.

Reno:
"Good heavens, this very thread has a reply where the poster seems to think it's normal for a government inspector to sign off on a house sale- something that was unheard of, even in New Jersey, at the beginning of this millennium. Yet our Jersey poster still struts forth, like a missionary to the savages, blithely unable to see that the rest of us do just fine without his gospel- or that he might do better himself."

THe CCO thing is a local ordinance, some of the towns do it, some don't. Ordinance adopted by the municipal councils. In the Twp I work in, the CCO inspector is NOT part of the Building Dept.

I have to try to reach out for Harold & discuss our next sermon!!!

Well Said!

I am getting notifications that is thread has gone off topic into a political rant. Please stick with the original topic Thanks

Guys,

I am sorry. I have been very busy this week. I just got back. Only one of my towns have a CCO inspection and it is for commercial business only. Reno is entitled to his opinions and I don't have a problem with that. It is a free country. As John would say, "I don't make the rules, I just have to enforce them."