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Posted By: schenimann Make sure to get permits - 06/19/13 05:40 AM
This is a local story. An inspection wouldn't necessarily have saved a life but it sure would have helped their chances.

http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.nc/3ef20157-www.wlos.com.shtml#.UcEluflOM9I

Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/19/13 07:53 PM
I can't get the link to open, it may be a filter at my work office, or the link is bad.

If you could check the link in the meanwhile, or post the relevance here it will be appreciated.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/19/13 08:59 PM
BOONE, N.C. (AP) -- A Boone inspector says a motel pool heater that leaked carbon monoxide and killed a Washington state couple and later a South Carolina boy was installed without the knowledge of the town's inspection department. Todd Miller with the Boone Planning and Inspections Department says the Best Western Plus Blue Ridge Plaza never told the city about the new heater. Miller says the motel did not apply for a required permit for the change. Officials say carbon monoxide poisoning killed 73-year-old Daryl Jenkins and 72-year-old Shirley Jenkins of Longview, Wash., on April 16. They were staying in a room directly over the pool's maintenance room. Eleven-year-old Jeffrey Lee Williams of Rock Hill, S.C., died in the same room June 8. An attorney for the motel did not respond to a message.

Read More at: http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.nc/3ef20157-www.wlos.com.shtml#.UcH_QtimXux
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/20/13 03:21 AM
Please spare me the usual assertion that a piece of paper makes any difference at all. Remember the Space Shuttle Challenger? Everything was inspected, signed off on - and BOOM!

To be fair, the media seems to have lost the ability to actually report on anything. Few stories have any meat behind the headline.

Now ... perhaps ... had the report contained a statement like "Inspector Smith stated that the heater was found to lack proper venting, and was obviously installed by someone who had no knowledge of the trade," the article might actually have done some good.

Better yet would be a more specific statement, such as "The heater exhaust was placed right next to a fresh air intake for the room above." That sort of statement would have educated folks as to the correct way, and why it matters.

Instead, we hear a commissar fretting that some serf failed to first kneel to the bureaucracy.

As reported, for all we know there is absolutely nothing wrong with the heater. We don't even know what was 'new' about the heater- had there been any sort of heater there before?

If City Hall doesn't want to poison the trial by discussing specifics ... I bet the paper would be willing to co-operate in writing an abstract sidebar on the topic.

Spare me chat about 'the lawyers.' All lawyers care about are their cases - and there are no cases without bodies. Small wonder folks assume some 'lawyer' would advise against an informative statement.

I'd also like to see such reporting identify all the involved parties. Like, say: who did the actual work? Contractor? Pool Guy? Hotel clerk's second cousin working for cash?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/20/13 03:39 AM
Reno:

FWIW, the point is there was no inspections as a result of unpermitted work.

The points that you make proper venting, exhaust placement, etc., would have been noted by a competent inspector.

It's a shame that lives are lost.

Yes, I'm one of the bureaucracy as you reference, I do not expect anyone to kneel. The basic purpose of inspectors is life safety, and compliance with the state regulations.

How about, where there any CO detectors??

Posted By: schenimann Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/20/13 05:08 AM
Would an inspection have saved lives? There is a good chance that it would have. At minimum it would have forced the installer to have some accountability for his work. It is a shame that a routine install caused these deaths.

I don't think there were any detectors. A different report said that they would be installed due to accident.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/20/13 01:27 PM
Sad that it took lives to have CO detectors installed.


Posted By: jdevlin Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/20/13 02:50 PM
The link is no longer valid.

Why were there two separate incidents over a month apart? Did they not investigate the first one properly?
Posted By: WESTUPLACE Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/20/13 04:27 PM
In this case bureaucracy may have save a life and cost a life. The first death was investigated by the ME office and the ME failed to promptly report there findings to the police investigators (first CO death)If this was done the second death could have been prevented. On the other hand, the bldg that collapsed on the Salvation Army bldg and killed several people was inspected before it fell. The inspector later committed suicide. Inspectors only help keep us safe. Only good workmanship and us as contractors following code and proper installation practices will prevent such tragedies. I consider an inspector only a back up to this.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/21/13 12:54 AM
That's the point - and why the media is so feeble!

From the article, we don't know WHAT was new. Had they simply replaced an old unit with a new, there never was a permit required.

Nor are we told there was anything wrong with the instal. For all we know, the heater had nothing to do with the deaths. CO can come from many places.

There's not even a vague accusation that improper work was done by unqualified parties.

Instead, we ASSUME.

We also assume that an inspection would have identified the dangers present. I've been through far too many inspections to have any faith in the inspector finding anything.

CO detectors? Frankly, that's another discussion. I'm not convinced of their efficacy.

It's pretty clear-by now- that my main gripe is with the pathetic media report.
Posted By: harold endean Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/21/13 02:20 AM
Here is another story about "MAKE SURE TO GET INSPECTIONS."

Just today, I had to go to a final inspection. It was a finished basement. There was no rough inspection done on the job. The seller was an elderly couple. They either did the work without permits or bought the house and the previous owner did the work. I don't know. I just had to go today and final out the permit. There was a letter on file stating that this EC went through the basement and certified that everything down there met the code.

The first thing I saw was a recpt. above an electric baseboard heater. I also saw a handy box with too many wires in it ( I think it was 3 cables and a recpt.)
There were also several recpt. in unfinished area with out GFI protection. The only GFI done there had an open ground wire connection.

So naturally, I had to fail the job. The owners were very mad because the house closing is tomorrow. Luckily, the new buyer was there and she saw everything. They both wanted to know if they could close on the house tomorrow. I said that if you guys write up something in your contract, that the attorneys, realtors, owners/buyers all agree to, I don't care. Just fix everything and call for a final inspection.

I also blame the EC who signed the letter stating that everything was up to code. He obviously didn't look too well.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/21/13 03:08 AM
Interesting tale, Harold. I always enjoy posts from foreign countries laugh

Here in the USA - at least, in 49 of the 50 states - we seem to muddle along just fine without any need for inspections at the time of sale. Indeed, I can't see where the State has any business injecting itself into such a basic, private, transaction.

Not that things are perfect elsewhere. If nothing else,"Holmes on Homes" has educated a lot of folks about the shoddy work out there. An entire 'home inspection' business has come into being.

I should note here that Mike Holmes did a sequel, "Holmes Inspections," where he exposed the inadequacies of these inspections.

In my own remodel - a project that will go on for years - City Hall has a set response for me: No permit needed. They think I'm daft for asking.

Fellow property owners (and contractors) also think I'm a bit daft, as I am rather anal about what I expect. For example, my insistence on a concrete pad for the air conditioner. Others question my passion for correcting errors as my demolition finds them (but it's lasted this long ...).

Heck, I just may install fire sprinklers, just to keep the gossips busy laugh

Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/21/13 04:13 AM
Harold:
I have also had a few ECs that provided letters attesting to installations being code compliant, safe, all devices tested, etc. (Letters filed with permit app)

At the inspection, 3-way switch don't work, receptacles miswired, GFIs not working, luminaires not secured to ceiling grid,

Red tag, upset owner/realtor. I call the EC and ask "what's up"; answers vary from 'I didn't see that'; 'it looked good to me'; I only filed the permit & letter'; 'what job??'

Posted By: NORCAL Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/21/13 06:43 AM
This statement does not apply everywhere as I respect the inspectors on this & other boards, but locally the inspections are just for revenue not safety, around my house I lose no sleep about not getting a permit.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/21/13 07:16 AM
Inspectors do depend on the contractors doing their job.
Can you trick an inspector? Certainly
Will an inspector catch everything you screw up? Nope.
The whole system is based on spot checking the work. Nobody is going to open every box ans check every termination.

I had a dispute with DMS when I started inspecting because I was taking too much time. It was the bean counters more than the "boss" and I pretty much ignored them. In many cases I was not working with qualified installers and I felt safety was more important than hitting some bogie on time per inspection. The reality was that the travel on most of my inspections was more than the "eyes on" anyway. I was covering 8 counties. (primary on 5 and backup on 3 more)
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/22/13 03:07 AM
"Primary' on 5 counties??? How did you manage that??
I have 32 sq miles, 115k pop, 5k +/- permits a year, myself & 1 inspector and and we just about make it daily.

Yes, it's a help when the EC is at a jobsite, or the foreman/lead man is there for the inspections. If there are any minor issues, they could be corrected, to save a red tag & re-inspect.

I agree with Greg, I'm human, & so is my 1 inspector.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/22/13 06:17 AM
My original contract was for 3 counties, then they kept expanding it.
I worked for the state, inspecting all state projects.
Actually pretty cool.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/22/13 03:30 PM
We're forgetting one thing here: Our entire country wasn't built around 'inspections' and 'permits.' Rather,it was built on the doctrine of accountability, with the right to sue under 'common law' for wrongs.

Let's look at the hotel room in question. Suppose the first victim had died of disease - which the next victim caught. There are no specific 'codes' addressing what the hotel operator must do in cleaning the room; rather, the next victim is free to take his claim to court and let the jury decide.

Introduce code requirements, and you often make things less safe, and lessen the recourse available. "It met all legal requirements, was permitted, and inspected" becomes a positive defense against any claims.

There's an impulse in the inspection community to favor more rules,in greater detail, with more inspections. However well-intentioned, this impulse ignores millennium of history showing that it is the very nature of government to abuse power. Our Constitution was created for the sole purpose of limiting the government.

"My department is perfect and my people all angels." Sure it is. That doesn't account for other departments and their agendas.



Posted By: gfretwell Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/22/13 04:52 PM
Yup and average life expectancy was about 58
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 01:54 AM
Your comment seems to infer that freedom comes at the price of a shorter life. Statistics fail to bear that out.

US life expectancy is considerably greater than what's found in, say, Cuba. Or, for that matter, any other tyranny you care to mention.

Within the US, life expectancy is greater in less regulated places like Iowa, than in heavily governed places like Washington, D.C.

The lesson is clear: markets work - if you let them. Central planning fails- every time it's tried. Note the countries whose prosperity has rocketed from the moment they forsook all-powerful government. Their success has been directly paralleled by their degree of freedom.

Why do we continue to expand, and attempt to 'fine tune,' something destined to fail?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 04:05 AM
If you want to go somewhere that doesn't have building codes there are plenty of places out west but it might be hard finding work. With no oversight any handyman can call himself an electrician.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 03:28 PM
"If you want to go..."

Ahh, the old 'love it or leave it' canard. You've got it exactly backwards.

It WAS without ....until some (usually) well-meaning noobs figured a way to add their pet rules. What's important to note is that it was the regulatory advocates who wanted to change things- not the free men.

Cancel "was." It still IS. Every three years we're presented with a new NEC - and the book isn't getting any smaller. What is a new edition but more changes?

If you want to play the 'love it or leave it" game, might I submit the ones desiring change leave. There are plenty of places where one can join his comrades in regulating everything.

A more constructive approach might be to adopt what works, and discard what doesn't.

It's also necessary to remind folks who live in the heart of the bureaucracy that their view isn't the norm.

Good heavens, this very thread has a reply where the poster seems to think it's normal for a government inspector to sign off on a house sale- something that was unheard of, even in New Jersey, at the beginning of this millennium. Yet our Jersey poster still struts forth, like a missionary to the savages, blithely unable to see that the rest of us do just fine without his gospel- or that he might do better himself.

How many examples do we need, to prove the irrelevancy of these intrusive governments? A few examples:
- The country does fine with Romex and PVC, a detail Chicago can't admit;
- The country does fine with readily accessible black pipe, no matter that the D.C. area forbids its' sale to the unlicensed;
- "Gun control" is another area where the heavily regulated suffer, yet are unable to admit the successes in the less regulated areas;
- I fail to see anything positive from fragmented trade licensing. While California might assert that their licensing is somehow 'better' than Chicago's, I just can't find any differences in the work performed.

Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 03:42 PM
"With no oversight ..."

An interesting comment, worthy of it's own thread.

Let me put it this way ... I've heard all manner of comments over the years, to the effect that "my doctor / lawyer is the best in his field ..." Really? How does the speaker know? After all, they all have the same licenses.

I've never seen the "Consumer Reports" issue that compared Dr. Welby to his peers, and ranked him. I must have missed the "Forbes 500" issue that listed law firms.

Implicit in regulation is that every additional rule has the unintended effect of making things easier for the outlaw. Call me a dreamer, but I don't think we write rules so we can punish the law abiding.

Posted By: harold endean Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 03:50 PM
Reno,

There are many EC's out there that do very good work, and if all the EC's were like them, I would have or need a job.
As for my foreign country of NJ, Yeah, this state gets a little (Lot) out of control on a lot of items. The states answer to our complaints would be if you don't like this state, you can always move out. ( Though I think you have to pay a tax on leaving this state too.) smile

Also around here a lot of illegal built basements in codo assoc. are turned in by a neighbor. They are one of the firsts to drop a dime on their neighbor. It is the "If I need a permit, why don't they?" attitude.

Last item is that a lot of realtors around here also check on "finished" basement. Too many times the owner sells a house and moves out, then the realtor is left holding the bag and trying to get a new buyer, and trying to get old permits closed out.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 04:35 PM
Reno I can argue your side as well. This is just not the place.
The point is, the US has places that has people who think like you and I support their right to do it but the sad fact is the people vote for these rules in most metro areas and we are stuck with them.

One of my observations is that people move away from the city to "get away from it all" then they want to bring it all with them.

The day when the Libertarian Party gets more than one percent of the votes will be the day people are starting to change their mind. They usually get my vote.

Until that time, inspectors need to remember 90.4 gives them the power to make reasonable accommodations if a particular rule is ridiculous an a particular situation and bending it will not create an unsafe condition.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 06:34 PM
Libertarian? What's that?

Neighbors turning each other in... no surprise there. Whether here or Afghanistan, folks are always quite ready to manipulate the system to their advantage. Example: The Steel Pipe makers' stuffing the ballot box at the NEC conventions- and the NFPA quite happy with them doing it.

I'm pretty sure a society where everyone secretly informs on each other is not 'free.' Blame the Nuns in Catholic school: survivors of both Stalin and Hitler, they spoke in horror of a society where even children informed on their parents.

I'll challenge the idea that people 'vote for these rules.' Even what procedures we have are being pushed aside these days, as 'emergency' actions. Whether the matter be firearms, health control, or the NEC, the system is determined to operate without your consent.

Indeed,as we sit, the Supreme Court is set to rule on yet another regulatory confiscation case- a matter that I thought had been decisively settled years ago.

90.4? There are two issues citing 90.4.

The first is that the NFPA sends out the troops every code cycle, demanding the NEC be adopted without amendment or exception. The claim is the same: Aren't you opening yourself up to liability if you question the combined wisdom of all the real experts? In this environment, just try to ask for a ruling that's not supported by a specific reference.

The other problem is that the NEC is quite happy to ignore Article 90. They certainly stopped limiting their scope years ago.

The realtor left holding the bag? How does that happen? The realtor is but a sales agent. He is shielded from any liability by both contract and statute. If he buys his own listing, isn't that a conflict of interest? I'm not likely to have much sympathy for the realtor.

Getting back on point,we are still completely ignorant that anything was wrong with the heater installation, or even that a permit was required. There's nowhere near enough information to claim an inspection would have changed anything.

Blame the reporter for a bad story. Blame the OP for turning a leap of logic into a leap of faith.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 09:59 PM
Reno:
"Good heavens, this very thread has a reply where the poster seems to think it's normal for a government inspector to sign off on a house sale- something that was unheard of, even in New Jersey, at the beginning of this millennium. Yet our Jersey poster still struts forth, like a missionary to the savages, blithely unable to see that the rest of us do just fine without his gospel- or that he might do better himself."

THe CCO thing is a local ordinance, some of the towns do it, some don't. Ordinance adopted by the municipal councils. In the Twp I work in, the CCO inspector is NOT part of the Building Dept.

I have to try to reach out for Harold & discuss our next sermon!!!


Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/23/13 10:21 PM
smile Well Said!
Posted By: dougwells Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/25/13 08:22 PM
I am getting notifications that is thread has gone off topic into a political rant. Please stick with the original topic Thanks
Posted By: harold endean Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/30/13 04:20 PM
Guys,

I am sorry. I have been very busy this week. I just got back. Only one of my towns have a CCO inspection and it is for commercial business only. Reno is entitled to his opinions and I don't have a problem with that. It is a free country. smile As John would say, "I don't make the rules, I just have to enforce them."
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/30/13 05:22 PM
You don't want baseless assertions answered, don't make them.

The OP asserts a news article supports his belief that increased government involvement (permits and inspections) would have prevented a tragedy. The news article does not support that claim.

We don't know that a permit was required, who did the work, or exactly what flaw an inspection would have discovered.

Perhaps this is a simple example if incomplete reporting. Or, perhaps, there is nothing wrong with the pool heater, and all the inspections and rules in the world would not matter.

I am sure the OP has taken Doug's hint, and will refrain from starting any more blatantly political threads.
Posted By: electure Re: Make sure to get permits - 06/30/13 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by dougwells
I am getting notifications that is thread has gone off topic into a political rant. Please stick with the original topic Thanks


The OP is not the problem here.
I'm locking the thread.



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