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Cameras Everywhere #208577 01/30/13 03:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline OP
Cat Servant
OK, time to re-open an emotional topic: "spy" cameras.

I agree, folks don't like the idea of being watched. We feel insulted, and we're reluctant to trust the unaccountble troll on the other end of the feed.

Yet ....

When I wired that mini-mart, the guy put cameras all over the place - not just pointing at the cashier. It was amazing who stole - often the last folks you would expect. Later, when an armed robbery was attempted, the various cameras were able show the entire drama, from the guy approaching the store to the police carting him off.

Last night the cameras at the mill took wonderful footage of a man rummaging through multiple desks. A long time skilled employee, recently advanced to management, his behaviour was inexcusable. Seems all those mystery break-ins over the years have now been explained. He no longer works here.

Folks, you can't predict when or why you'll need a camera. I'm becomming convinced that the only logical thing is to record everything, all the time.

A bad world? Is it? Or, will we be more 'free' when we stop others from preying on us?

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Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208578 01/30/13 06:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
Tesla Offline

This is an ancient tale -- going back fifty-years:

Oregon sea-side resort grocery store lived/survived on the Summer season.

Comes the Summer, however, their shrinkage/ pilferage rate heads to the Moon.

So, HQ sends out Pinkertons to 'control' the shop-lifting.

It quickly turned out that ALL of their thieves were the 'locals.'

At first the management swore up and down that Mrs. so-and-so couldn't possibly have been shoplifting...

After ten-days it was obvious that a trend existed.

The towns rationale: at the prices the store was getting they couldn't afford them year-round without shoplifting like crazy during the Summer. (!)


As regards the climbing employee: it can be very difficult to split the ruthless climber from the honest trooper.

It's a pretty good bet that the rummaging man used dirty tricks all the way up the ladder.

Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208579 01/30/13 10:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 251
I have been involved in the CCTV business since the mid 1970's Most systems installed have been more aimed (Pun intended) at employee theft than the shoplifter. Shoplifters are hard to catch unless you have on-site security or law enforcement. Employee theft can rob a business blind. They have the time, know when someone is watching, and many times the ability to cover up there tracks. Many camera systems just keep them honest, but many just ignore the cameras and take what they want. I have several videos of employees climbing a ladder to cut the wires to a camera, so they will not be caught, as if cutting the wire will erase the video of them doing it. Darwin.

Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208580 01/30/13 10:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,618
gfretwell Offline
My wife is running a country club now and those are some thieving sommiches. They rob themselves blind. She can't keep hand lotion, soap or toilet paper in the bathrooms. The dining room loses enough table ware to set up a small restaurant every month. They lose pool furniture, umbrellas and she can't keep a hose.
The strangest thing is sand trap rakes. They lose a couple a month and nobody even has a clue what people are doing with them.
She really believes some day an old lady will die and when they open her garage it will be stuffed to the rafters with stolen stuff.

Greg Fretwell
Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208581 01/30/13 11:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,258
HotLine1 Offline
Cameras at the 'counter' to record the daily business at the Building Dept and the Zoning Dept were frowned upon.

Turned out that when a raving lunitic taxpayer went storming down the hall to the Mayors office, the DVR was played, and the employee was 'not guilty'!!

Signs are posted throughout the bldg regarding the cameras at various locations. (Keep the lawyers away)

I say, if you have not done anything, why worry about the cameras?

Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208602 01/31/13 09:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline OP
Cat Servant
So, why did I start this thread? I'm not sure.

The first was, perhaps, because we get involved in running the cables, etc.

The second is that some of us have employees, and all the concerns that come with that.

I suppose the real reason is a bit less obvious. It's too easy to get cynical - thank you, Tesla- but that's not much of an answer.

Rather, I think it harps back to one of the hardest principles of troubleshooting: Check your assumptions!

The results of these cameras challenge many of the things we 'know' about folks. Far too often it is turning out that the 'respectable' folks are the ones making life hell for everyone.

We learn this in business. Think about two businesses: brothels and churches. Which is respectable? Well, there are plenty of threads in the business section where the trials of doing church work are detailed.

There are plenty of clever arguments against the 'morality' of surveillance cameras. Sort of like the 'legal drug' crusaders, I suspect that we're again being deceived by the scoundrels - abetted by useful idiots.

In code circles, we've seen far too many recent changes that either cater to one party's pocketbook, or that assume a legal structure quite alien to this country. Somehow these factors are left out of the discussions.

So, whatever the situation ... check your assumptions.

Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208605 01/31/13 09:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 251
In all the video I have viewed, 2 stand out. one was a police officer accused of sexual harassment, and the other was a 19yr old store clerk accused of stealing a credit card number. In both cases nether accuser knew they were being video recorded.In both cases the accused were vindicated by the tape, and in the case of the police officer the accused was found guilty of perjury and fined. So cameras can be a good thing, and may save your a$$.

Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208608 01/31/13 11:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,258
HotLine1 Offline
Debating cameras can and will have many opinions, hatred & praise, it all depends on who is making the various statements.

Red light cameras? Politicos love the $$$ generated. Those who get 'caught' vent hostility, cry about their right to face their accuser, most pay the $$$ to save the time & court fees. That fight will rage on.

'Spy' cameras looking at streets, sidewalks, roads, etc., have a decent (IMHO) track record of assisting in catching the 'bad guys'. To these I say, if you have nothing to hide, why worry?? Go to an ATM & you are recorded.

Bank cameras, theft deterent cameras, toll cheaters, security etc., etc.

Ya never know when you could be 'saved', protected, assisted, or your assailant aprehended by a camera.

Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: HotLine1] #208609 02/01/13 12:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 810
Theelectrikid Offline
Originally Posted by HotLine1
'Spy' cameras looking at streets, sidewalks, roads, etc., have a decent (IMHO) track record of assisting in catching the 'bad guys'. To these I say, if you have nothing to hide, why worry?? Go to an ATM & you are recorded.

I know Philly and SEPTA love those cameras... Crime on the subway/el might not be going down but now they can actually find and arrest who commits the crimes.

Is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
Re: Cameras Everywhere [Re: renosteinke] #208611 02/01/13 02:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 947
twh Offline
Like other tools, whether they are good or bad depends on the use and your opinion of right and wrong. We agree theft is bad so cameras to catch theft are good. Do we think that salesmen should be able to watch you on the same camera to see which products you are interested in? I think not, but the people at google wouldn't agree. How about politicians tracking your political affiliations so they don't give good jobs to people who support the wrong party?

Camera don't oppress people. People oppress people. The problem is to keep the cameras out of the hands of the oppressors when they don't become oppressors until they have a camera.

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