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Joined: Jul 2004
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George, the EGC in a pool is far from an isolated ground so I don't see the alternate path thing as being an issue. An in ground concrete pool is actually the biggest Ufer grounding electrode in any home. Virtually all of the equipment is bonded to the pool shell and is connected to the service via an EGC. Add a screen cage, a few window frames, plus the deck and you have a huge interconnected matrix.
Greg Fretwell
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2000xp8- I enforce the insulated grounding conductor per the code and with good reason. There is a need for a good clean grounding path for any fault current or any other irregularities associated with a pool or spa. by using an uninsulated grounded conductor there is always a chance for alternate path of current flow on any grounded surface. Your point makes some sense, but in reality the tub is grounded to the sub panel, which also in most situations will have other grounds in it going to other circuits. So basically it have many other alternate directions for the ground to go. I think some of you guys that are inspectors take some things too personal, it's not. It's business. And by coming down harder on someone that has used the system to the best of their ability, you make it personal. I'd also go as far as to call it abuse of power. My local inspectors are very good, they seem to be fair, and treat all jobs by all contractors equivalently. It's almost like you guys think it's a game and we are your opponent.
Last edited by 2000xp8; 07/08/09 01:50 AM.
NJ licensed electrician
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I do not think we should have an adversary relationship with the contractors. We are partners in the effort to make a safe installation. Most of the time I do try to have a good explanation of why the code says what it does but I admit I am at a loss on this "insulated neutral" thing. I always thought it was a corrosion issue. I do understand why they keep a "belt and suspenders" approach to swimming pools. Water, electricity and semi naked people, lots of things can go wrong.
Greg Fretwell
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Joined: Apr 2002
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2000xp8:
"Third, N-G on 1 buss or lug in a sub, buys a red sticker.
Lastly, I make this comment...trying to "get over" on an experienced AHJ with the two step job is not a good thing. I (for one) spent many years with tools, and I think I have a clue when someone is being 'slick'"
The sub install first I have no issue with, as I said, I can't forsee the future. The day I'm there is all I can see.
As to the 'bare neutral' issue, I have not addressed that.
Your comments regarding abuse of power, and eluding to preferential treatment, that were NOT addressed to me, seem to be kind of hostile.
Please keep reading.....
I will not use this forum for a flaming war, nor to get personal. However, PM and direct e-mail conversations/debates are more than welcomed by myself.
John
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This is the comment on why i made the abuse of power statement.
"If I did have to hold my nose and let that go I certainly would not be very flexible on the next installation."
As far as i'm concerned all inspections need to be handled 100% the same way, regardless of contractor or personal issues with someone. To be less flexible with someone based on the fact that a contractor used the system to their advantage is just wrong.
NJ licensed electrician
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ECN has a long record of honest discussion. We simply do not tolerate 'flaming' or bad manners here. Disagreement, yes .... personal attacks, no. An inspectors' attitude is a good topic for a discussion of its' own. I've seen plenty of differences in the way an inspector treats contractors, and that attitude often has some foundation in that contractor's past jobs. Let me cite two examples: I once had new inspector go so far as to measure my grounding pigtails in every box; he was similarly thorough as to every other detail he could think of. I don't know what inspired his attention to detail .... but I did notice his next inspection was cursory. I'm sure that his seeing the hearty reception I received at an inspectors' lunch had no influence on him at all On another job has a problematic customer, and a general with an ego. Both parties considered prints and plans as mere suggestions. On that job, relays of inspectors were constantly examining every detail .... but, for some reason, they left the electrical pretty much alone. (There was a brief fuss over my temporary power, but that was readily resolved). Let's face it: it would be improper to accept all statements, from all parties, under all circumstances the same way. An inspector has to make a snap judgement as to whether the contractor is competent and honest. There's virtue is the inspector devoting his resources where they are most needed.
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2000xp8:
"This is the comment on why i made the abuse of power statement.
"If I did have to hold my nose and let that go I certainly would not be very flexible on the next installation."
As far as i'm concerned all inspections need to be handled 100% the same way, regardless of contractor or personal issues with someone. To be less flexible with someone based on the fact that a contractor used the system to their advantage is just wrong."
I agree with your post/comments excluding the quoted statement. Personal issues have to be left in the car or home by all inspectors, and all EC's. The Codes have to be enforced equally, AHJ to AHJ, job to job, contractor to contractor, town to town, etc. This enforcement procedure is within the intent of NJ UCC (5:23 et al)
As I say to many EC's at CEU's or on jobsites, I don't write it, I only enforce it. Someday the perfect world scenario of "Black & White" with gray eliminated will arrive.
John
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"If I did have to hold my nose and let that go I certainly would not be very flexible on the next installation."
Since that was my comment I will address it. How can we respect each other if you start out trying to game the system? Who was "abusing" whom here? If you are shading the truth before we start, I have to be curious where else you are cutting corners. I certainly will not trust what you tell me about things you say you did without looking at it. Fair enough?
Greg Fretwell
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Several things can affect any inspection. Upon coming from an inspection where I found that the equipment grounding conductor extended about 8" down a conduit so that it looked like the equipment ground was installed as called for, I went through with a very fine toothed comb. I then went to a job where at first glance everything looked good and so I did not look at it as close, but yes there still were items written up.
Next time I look at the first contractors work, I will be very pickey and concerned. I will be thorough until I know what to expect of someone and adjust acccordingly, yet all of us can use a second set of eyes.
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