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Scottish regulations #145574
06/12/06 11:08 AM
06/12/06 11:08 AM
K
Kenbo  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 233
Scotland
I know that Part P of the building regulations do not apply in here in Scotland but do in England.

This is causing a lot of confussion anyone know why it is not relevent?

I can only think it is to do with our different legal systems but do not know what the differences are?

Anyone know?


der Großvater
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Re: Scottish regulations #145575
06/14/06 02:36 AM
06/14/06 02:36 AM
P
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
As you say, I think it's just the slightly different legal systems. Part P is in the Building Regulations for England & Wales, but Scottish Building Regs. are somewhat different.

As I understand it, Scottish Building Regs. have specified that installations must follow I.E.E. Wiring Regs. (now BS7671) for a good many years, whereas in England & Wales there has never been any such requirements (and still isn't).

Part P doesn't apply in Northern Ireland either, which again has slightly different laws.

Re: Scottish regulations #145576
06/14/06 06:11 AM
06/14/06 06:11 AM
K
Kenbo  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 233
Scotland
Paul

Thanks that just confirms what I though

Kenny


der Großvater
Re: Scottish regulations #145577
06/14/06 05:12 PM
06/14/06 05:12 PM
G
gideonr  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 161
Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
Look here: http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/current_standards/th_html_2006/bsthd-69.htm

"An electrical installation should be designed,constructed, installed and tested such that it is in accordance with the recommendations of BS 7671: 2001, as amended.

In a bathroom or shower room, an electric shaver power outlet, complying with BS EN 60742: 1996 may be installed. Other than this, there should be no socket outlets and no means for connecting portable equipment within such rooms.

Where a shower cubicle is located in a room, such as a bedroom, any socket-outlet should be installed at least 3 m from the shower cubicle."

Re: Scottish regulations #145578
06/15/06 04:43 AM
06/15/06 04:43 AM
T
Texas_Ranger  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,433
Vienna, Austria
Quote
Where a shower cubicle is located in a room, such as a bedroom, any socket-outlet should be installed at least 3 m from the shower cubicle."

If we had such a requirement in Austria I guess some old kitchens wouldn't have too many sockets...

Re: Scottish regulations #145579
06/15/06 07:33 AM
06/15/06 07:33 AM
P
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Quote
"An electrical installation should be designed,constructed, installed and tested such that it is in accordance with the recommendations of BS 7671: 2001, as amended."


Forgive my Sassenach ignorance on Scottish matters, but reading the language actually used in that document makes me query the hard legal position.

I'd always been led to believe that compliance with IEE Regs. was actually mandatory under Scottish Building Regs., but the way that's worded makes it seem less certain. "Should follow" doesn't necessarily mean "must follow" in legal terminology, or maybe it sjust the reference to the recommendations of BS7671 which helps give that impression.

So is everything in that document actually hard legislation, or is it just a guideline as to how one might comply, as with the new English Part P?

The heading for section 4.5 ("mandatory") just has the same sort of non-specific requirements as Part P, viz.:

Quote
Every building must be designed and constructed in such a way that the electrical installation does not:

(a) threaten the health and safety of the people in, and around, the building; and

(b) become a source of fire.


So what is the actual law? [Linked Image]

Re: Scottish regulations #145580
06/15/06 11:06 AM
06/15/06 11:06 AM
K
Kenbo  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 233
Scotland
Quote
Forgive my Sassenach ignorance on Scottish matters, but reading the language actually used in that document makes me query the hard legal position.


Not all nothing to forgive. Even us Jocks are having trouble with this. I was always taught that the IEE regulations are just that regulations but working to them would keep you within the law. If you did something wrong this is the book that would be quoted in court to prove you did wrong.

Quote
"An electrical installation should be designed,constructed, installed and tested such that it is in accordance with the recommendations of BS 7671: 2001, as amended."

My understanding of this statement is so that alterations can be made to the regs without having to rewrite the whole book. We currently are working to "BS7671:2001 amendment 2"

When I teach I emphasise the importance of not deviating from the regs.


der Großvater
Re: Scottish regulations #145581
06/16/06 04:09 AM
06/16/06 04:09 AM
P
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Hmm.... A little searching and link-hopping reveals a few things.

First, there's this document on the SBSA site:

Guidance for Electrical Verifiers

Quote
The guidance in clause 4.5.1 to building standard 4.5 states that an electrical installation should be designed, constructed, installed and tested such that it is in accordance with the recommendations of BS 7671:2001 as amended.


If the statement in clause 4.5.1 is merely guidance, then this seems to suggest that compliance with BS7671 is not mandatory.
Para. 2 on page 6 seems to confirm:

Quote
Alternatively, where the guidance in clause 4.5.1 of the Technical Handbook supporting functional standard 4.5 is not followed the verifier may determine that "reasonable enquiry? will require that an independent inspection and test is carried out under their direction......


There is also a reference to the actual requirements of Schedule 5 in the Building (Scotland) Regulations 2004, which can be seen here:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/ssi2004/20040406.htm

Schedule 5 simply repeats the lines quoted above for "Section 4.5 mandatory," with no reference to BS7671.

Re: Scottish regulations #145582
06/16/06 04:38 PM
06/16/06 04:38 PM
G
gideonr  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 161
Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/current_standards/th_html_2006/bsthd-02.htm#014

"ensure that no barriers to trade in construction products are created"

"The use of expanded functional standards, backed up by detailed guidance, provides a flexible system of control. Consideration of alternative solutions is assisted by the expansion of the functional standards previously used in the building standards regulations to clarify the necessary properties of each building. The need for a formal relaxation of standards is reduced as meeting the full details of given solutions is no longer mandatory. The professional judgement of the verifier, assisted by guidance on questions referred to Scottish Ministers, through the Scottish Building Standards Agency, decides whether a standard is met."

Seems to me they are trying to set minimum standards, while not excluding new methods and products.

Re: Scottish regulations #145583
06/17/06 05:56 AM
06/17/06 05:56 AM
P
pauluk  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Quote
Failure to comply with the Technical Handbook does not render a person liable to civil or criminal procedures,


Similar to the "Approved Documents" for England & Wales by the sound of it then.

I wonder where the idea that compliance with BS7671 is mandatory by law in Scotland has come from? Could it be the same sort of process in which English councils are trying to claim that BS7671 is mandatory under Part P?


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