ECN Forum Forums Photo Discussion Forums Photos for General Discussion A Few Panels

Here are some pictures of some panels I have installed recently.

I offer them here to be dissected to bits by the members here.

Don't worry I can take it.

Click the photos for larger and higher resolution photos.

<IMG SRC=\"https://www.electrical-contractor.net/forum/iw/INSURANCE1.SM.jpg\">

<IMG SRC=\"https://www.electrical-contractor.net/forum/iw/INSURANCE2.SM.jpg\">

<IMG SRC=\"https://www.electrical-contractor.net/forum/iw/WHOIPANEL1.SM.jpg\">

Bob

VERY NICE!!! Square -D too I like!~!!!
Only thing that would raise a bit of concern up here is the black being used and I.D. as "green" and "white".. No big deal though. ( inspectors are finiky here, they have a weird fasination with green and white wire).. I know you don't need them here, and I am not being picky by any means whatsoever , but even when not required I like to throw on a few plastic bushings on the ends of the connectors, just for a bit of added protection and "decoration" (more so the big ones, not so much for the smaller conduits unless its required or spec'd).

A.D

[This message has been edited by Rewired (edited 01-02-2006).]

Thanks.

In all three panels the black re-marked white is larger than 6 AWG so unless there is a local amendment it must be accepted per 200.6(B).

The EGC in pictures 1 and 2 are also larger than 6 AWG so they must also be accepted per 250.119(A).

However the EGC in picture 3 is 8 AWG and is therefore in violation of 250.119.

Not much of an excuse other than the customers representative (an electrician himself) supplied the material.

No!

Be picky, rip it up, have fun.

I would never post a picture of electric work here and expect people not to be picky.

Bob

I offer them here to be dissected to bits by the members here.

The panels in pix #1 and #3 aren't plumb...j/k

Seriously though, why is the panel in #3 bottom feed from a top feeder?
Couldn't the guts just have been flipped? There appears to be more than enough room for bending radii (as there usually is with Square D QOB panels), if that was the issue.

EDIT: New year and I still can't spell

[This message has been edited by Celtic (edited 01-02-2006).]

Well know we know why they call you hack, diy, wannabe, scab, etc over at the other forum.

Nice job.

Thanks gentlemen.


Good question.

Yes the guts can be flipped as where the ones above.

The feeder raceway had to come in at the extreme corner. With the feeder on the side I felt going bottom feed was better.

The reason is any additional KOs will need to be drilled into the top, by bottom feeding the feeders are nowhere near the 'drilling zone'. This comes from the service guy in me.

Normally my preference would be as the top two panels are (center top feed) which also keeps the feeders away from future work.

Bob

I also really like how you have all the conduits run down and on Uni-strut!!! like I said before VERY NICE.. Work of art it is! Then again, electrical IS an art is it not?

About that re-colour coding though: thats where Canadian codes and American code differs a bit I guess.. I don't think we are allowed to re-code anything smaller than #2??? Something like that anyway, at least on services. I will have to research that more! Meh, no biggie though , it all works and is SAFE!!

A.D

[This message has been edited by Rewired (edited 01-02-2006).]

You could have spent more time making 90s in the wire where it goes into the breaker .

Actually there has been research that shows the conductors are better off not being squared off as they make bends. The sweeps as Bob has installed are a very good job.

Bob
You have performed work to make our industry proud. Re-identifying conductors is common practice in our industry.

The only thing I would comment on is the tyrapping of the conductors. I used to do that, but stopped a while ago.
Isn't it great to be able to do such good work?

Great work Bob!,
Can't see anything wrong here. {Damn! }
I'd be proud of this level of workmanship, were these panels mine.

Very, very nice. I love seeing work done by true craftsmen who obviously take pride in their job and their trade, your work gives me something to try and live up to.

well if you really want some criticism you could have decorated the inside of the panels with fresh-cut roses {seriously, I wish that more people could apreciate the asthetics and workmanship in a job like this, my friends all find it odd when I stop to look at a "pretty" conduit run/piece of electrical equiptment}

Really a great job, hope nobody comes along in a few years and starts fiddling with it

Thanks again folks.


I hear you Pierre, I agree I am not a big fan of tie wrapped panels either. If I go back to that panel I will cut them off as at that point the conductors will have taken on the shape I wanted.

As you know stranded THHN can be tough to 'train' without tie wraps.

There is a violation in the bottom panel no one has picked up on.

Bob

Are those EMT connectors throated?

I am assuming, not seeing any plastic bushings...

Nice job......


Dnk...

The feeders have either bonding or plastic bushings, the branch circuits do not have any.

My comment was made in jest, hence the smiley afterwards.

Bob
You taped the grounding conductor green in the bottom panel, is that the violation you are talking about?? 250.119??

Your right the 8 AWG taped green is a violation but there is another violation as well.

I will give some more info.

All branch circuits have 20 amp breakers, 12 AWG THHN/THWN and all 120 volt circuits are two wire (per customers request).

Bob

Bob,
Re: the third pic... Does it have something to do with the reducing washer in the top left or the # of conductors in the conduit (vs. derating) on the right?

Those are the only 2 things that stick out to me

Otherwise pretty snazzy work Good Job!

Randy

We have a winner!!!

Randy it is the derating.

The customer is the AHJ here and the circuits each feed a 5 amp freezer so there will be no heating, still an NEC violation.

The reducing washers are legal although a major annoyance to me. The helper grabbed the 1.25" pipe size hole saw instead of the 1' pipe size hole saw.

WTF???
What kind of monitor do you people have? I still can't see that reducer...

Celtic, click on the photos and you get a big version.

Bob

Iwire...is the pix with the reducer #3? (top/bottom fed) Right next to the feeder?

Well will you look at that...it even has a magnifing glass!
Now I can see it all...BTW, did you torque the terminations and CBs?

Bob,
That looks like a beautiful installation but it has left me a little curious. Back in the day when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and I wired my last new panel, I would trim my conductors so they could reach the last breaker slot on their side of the panel. Then I would dress it back on itself and come in at a right angle as you have. That gave me a little flexibility if we wanted to put a high ampacity ckt in closer to the main lugs later. Is that still a common practice or is it frowned upon nowadays?
Joe

Joe It's just a personal thing with me I don't usually leave slack.

The company I work for is a stickler for color coding so shifting circuits can be problematic particularly when I usually run multiwire branch circuits.

Moving circuits also messes up the J-box labeling we do.

That aside I will be surprised if you can provide any good reason to place larger loads near the lug other than personal preference.

The difference of a few inches of busbar seems insignificant.

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 01-03-2006).]

Nice work Bob.



I don't leave slack either although we have guys who do. Just a matter of preference I guess.

Anyways Bob, you do pretty good for a "Hack Wannabe" (that is an inside joke)

Roger

Thank you.

Just wait till I am eligible for my license.

That's arrogant hack wannabe, get it right.

Speaking of right, good lookin' panels, Bob.

(Although, were I to nit pick, I would say you should pick either curved or straight; having the left bank elegantly curved and the right side hung up straight in the zip ties, tsk tsk. )

I have to say, I'm a little surprised at the lack of loops in the feeders, but I don't think my panels could compare, so I'll just keep my mouth shut.

But now I'll definutely have to burn your eyes with some of my eyesores.

Bob, in Pics #1 & #2 you used bond bushings at your service feeders and in Pic #3 a plastic bushing.

Doesen't the egc have to run continious through the bond bushing to the Gnd bar?
BTW it is a clean little job.

Rob

I was told to do it this way when I was an apprentice, but if you think about it, the whole bus has the same ampacity, right?

What good does it do to cluster the heavy loads in one place? If you have two large loads on the same stab, doesn't that double the heating on that particular stab? (This is more of a problem with stab-in breakers than with the NQOD shown here.) Furthermore, you are doubling the heating near the main lugs, one more place where resistance is possible. Why do this?

I say, run the heavy loads down one side of the panel (say, the left side), and the light loads down the other, or distribute the load in some other way.

I also question the value of perfectly-squared conductors. I've seen too many installers who will commit any atrocity as long as it's outside a panel, but obsess over perfect neatness inside. I do usually leave a small service loop, but if you overdo it, you get an unruly mess of wire.

I'd much rather see nice conduit work than perfectly-formed wires inside the panel.

My major pet peeve is the abuse of stair-step neutrals. Some installers use up the most accessible lugs first, leaving the service guy to thread wires and screwdrivers through tiny gaps.


Good thinking! This would not have occured to me, although I have certainly drilled into quite a few panels!

Nice work, Bob!

Looks good Bob!

Over here in Britain it's kind of an unwritten convention to start with the high-power circuits next to the main and then gradually work down the bus ending with the 5 or 6A lighting circuits at the far end.

There's never been any requirement to do it that way though.

Very nice looking panels. I want to start takings pics of my work but the fella's at work all think I'm a bit off my rocker for wanting to do that. Whatever...

The one thing I don't understand is this, why do the conductors coming through the "donuts" (in pic #3) have to be derated? What article prohibits this? I looked at 310.15 (B)(2)(A).

By the way, very nice 'workmanlike' looking panels.

QO Panelboards
Color-coding several inches
Tie wraps
No messy wire loops
Wire numbering

Grade A Bob

Dave

Thanks all!

Just George

Although, were I to nit pick, I would say you should pick either curved or straight; having the left bank elegantly curved and the right side hung up straight in the zip ties

Yeah I agree it is kind of strange that I did each side different.

I have to say, I'm a little surprised at the lack of loops in the feeders

It would be rare that I would leave a loop in the feeders. And once you get up above 3/0 CU loops are all but imposable in the space provided.

sierra electrician

Bob, in Pics #1 & #2 you used bond bushings at your service feeders and in Pic #3 a plastic bushing.

None of these are services, my normal choice would be plastic bushings.

The customers specifications required the bonding bushings on the side by side panels.

Doesen't the egc have to run continious through the bond bushing to the Gnd bar?

It does not have to but that would be the 'normal' way. I so seldom use bonding bushings I forgot to run the EGC through it before cutting it.

So you bagged me on that one.

yaktx

What good does it do to cluster the heavy loads in one place? If you have two large loads on the same stab, doesn't that double the heating on that particular stab?

Interesting point, I agree.


I say, run the heavy loads down one side of the panel (say, the left side), and the light loads down the other, or distribute the load in some other way.

I have been toying with that in my head as well, I think it makes the most sense electrically but it will look very unconventional.

Maybe I will try that out next time.

I also question the value of perfectly-squared conductors. I've seen too many installers who will commit any atrocity as long as it's outside a panel, but obsess over perfect neatness inside.

Another good point, I could have made these panels neater, but why?

I think we need keep a balance between time spent making the panel obsessively neat and the costs vs benefits to the customer.

My major pet peeve is the abuse of stair-step neutrals. Some installers use up the most accessible lugs first, leaving the service guy to thread wires and screwdrivers through tiny gaps.

Boy we really do think alike.

When people use the front first that is just plain ignorant!


Good thinking! This would not have occured to me, although I have certainly drilled into quite a few panels!

Thanks

I also have some very short bits for panel work. I keep a 1/4" pilot bit that I intentionally snapped shorter. I can chuck it in my drill with only about 1/4" sticking out of the chuck, it is very hard to get into live stuff with it.

Bob

pauluk

Over here in Britain it's kind of an unwritten convention to start with the high-power circuits next to the main and then gradually work down the bus ending with the 5 or 6A lighting circuits at the far end.

That is the 'normal' way here as well. I am just not sure it makes a bit of difference.


ShockMe77

I want to start takings pics of my work but the fella's at work all think I'm a bit off my rocker for wanting to do that.

Yeah that happens, so what?

The one thing I don't understand is this, why do the conductors coming through the "donuts" (in pic #3) have to be derated? What article prohibits this? I looked at 310.15 (B)(2)(A).

In the right hand 1" EMT are 12 current carrying conductors.

Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) requires a 50% derate for 12 current carrying conductors.

Table 310.16 shows 12 THHN as 30 amp rated.

30 * .5 = 15 amps

Code wise the breakers should be 15 amp.

By the way MA uses different de-rating tables so this is a legal install in MA.

Tiger

Grade A Bob

Thanks Dave I take you to be a guy with high expectations so that is high praise.

Bob

I got over that. While on vacation, my wife and I ended up at a laundromat. You have anything better to do while you wait than take pictures of the machines? The attendant asked me why, and I said, "I like to take pictures of washers, and I don't care if people think I'm strange."

Nice work! I always enjoy seeing work like this. It's obvious that you take pride in what you do.

Thanks X.

Bob

Great work Bob. And I agree with making it easier on the person following me i.e. the neutral bar. Recently had a slight argument with a coworker about that. I try to look out for someone following me, he said he didn't care.