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#118170 08/15/04 05:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
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Moderator
Scott I would not even call SE a giant piece of romex, I find the outer sheath of SE to be more fragile than NM.

Still I have it on my own house. [Linked Image]

Quote
It all depends on what you're accustomed to, and what your climate dictates.

That is really the truth and I will add what your AHJ expects. [Linked Image]

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
#118171 08/15/04 05:47 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 162
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Member
If the service entrance conductors and raceway are on the outside of the building sheathing, are the conductors considered in the building solely based upon the encasement??

#118172 08/15/04 05:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 482
Z
Member
Being a California Electricain myself, I know this would pass out here.

However, consider an underground feed. Out here, the ALWAYS come up through an insulated wall.

I have never seen a heat related problem either way with the in-wall feeder conduits.

#118173 08/15/04 06:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
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Moderator
Not saying how any other place is doing it wrong just different from how we read it here in MA. [Linked Image]

Quote
230.6 Conductors Considered Outside the Building.
Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or other structure under any of the following conditions:

(1)Where installed under not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete beneath a building or other structure

(2)Where installed within a building or other structure in a raceway that is encased in concrete or brick not less than 50 mm (2 in.) thick

(3)Where installed in any vault that meets the construction requirements of Article 450, Part III

(4)Where installed in conduit and under not less than 450 mm (18 in.) of earth beneath a building or other structure

Quote
230.70 General.
Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors.
(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).

(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

Given those NEC sections the service disconnect would have to be at the weather head or the raceway encased in concrete. [Linked Image]

At least in this area.

IMO the way CA does it sounds good. [Linked Image]

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
#118174 08/15/04 06:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
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Member
It is not the heat that concerns me, just the fact that I am so use to seeing unprotected service conductors outside of the building until the first point of disconnect.

One of the benefits of a forum like this is, I do not need to travel to see the different methods used in different parts of the country - also we get to see and speak to such a diverse group of really good electricians/people [Linked Image]

Pierre


Pierre Belarge
#118175 08/16/04 09:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 840
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Member
Bob,

Quote
I am not talking about the breakers being outside you can find that anywhere.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I was just saying that having all of the branch circuit breakers outdoors is a pretty rare occurence here in New England, at least in residential and commercial. I'm sure at refineries, chemical plants and maybe even sewage treatement plants this is far more common, but those are different circumstances [ie qualified maintenance personnel].

I know what the letter of the NEC says, but how are service conductors protected by PVC for a short distance in a wall any different than a 5' piece of unprotected service cable inside a house that we might see? Either installation is unlikely to be damaged in its lifetime, IMO.

As I said, when I first visited CA and saw those Western methods it took some getting used to. It was the first time I saw uninsulated NM staples being used. (Anyone from Mass, RI or CT knows what I mean.) But it was fun to see and learn a new way of doing things. [Linked Image]

Peter


[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 08-16-2004).]


Peter
#118176 08/17/04 12:27 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
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e57 Offline
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I've got to take a few pic's of the average SF service, you gent's will loose your minds! 25' - 35+' inside walls, meters and mains in the building behind locked doors, etc. Nothing other than RMC above ground though! (All service conductors only) No PVC at all for branch, above or below grade, unless in concrete. Supply houses dont even know what SE cable is, or stock it! (I take that back, I have seen some use it for ranges, but not recently.)


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#118177 08/17/04 08:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,294
Member
Heck, Mark.

The way you've described it, I'll lose my mind when I see the pictures!!

Send them on down!...S

#118178 08/17/04 03:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18
K
Member
Variety is the spice of life! Even within the area I cover, there are several versions of what's allowed.

In this town, SEC is allowed. Twenty miles North, only RMC is allowed outside of the building. Outside of city limits, it's whatever someone can get away with (no inspectors).

Based upon 230.6, this would be considered "outside" the building. The Line and Load side conduit and conductors were on the surface, and then covered. Since there's no insulation, this set up is like an easy-bake oven on a hot day.

230.70 doesn't help much, because "readily" accessible can mean several things. The towns that do have an inspector, they don't have a maximum distance to the disconnect.

Energy theft is still possible, but takes a lot of effort, and the ones who are careless end up in he "Darwin Awards".

One other issue. Although this one is OK, sometimes the meter base cover can't be opened because of the added siding.

Thanks for the good comments!!!


kduke
#118179 08/17/04 05:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,457
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Member
I don't have a problem with this. I wonder if just painting the pipe might look better than what they came up with.

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