ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
UL 508A SPACING
by ale348 - 03/29/24 01:09 AM
Increasing demand factors in residential
by tortuga - 03/28/24 05:57 PM
Portable generator question
by Steve Miller - 03/19/24 08:50 PM
Do we need grounding?
by NORCAL - 03/19/24 05:11 PM
240V only in a home and NEC?
by dsk - 03/19/24 06:33 AM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
1 members (ale348), 302 guests, and 14 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 787
L
Member
Thanks.

Larry C

Stay up to Code with the Latest NEC:


>> 2023 NEC & Related Reference & Exam Prep
2023 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides

Pass Your Exam the FIRST TIME with the Latest NEC & Exam Prep

>> 2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides
 

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
pauluk Offline OP
Member
Judging by the state of the wiring you can see here, I guess it won't come as too much of a surprise that I received a call yesterday to say that two of the fluoro lights at the end of the central aisle had stopped working.

By the time I investigated this afternoon, they were back on, although I was informed that they had done a lot of flickering on and off while "making noises" before coming back on fully.

Turns out that the neutrals in the terminal block of the upstream fitting were loose (as were the screws holding it to the ceiling).

I also found that the ground wires on the incoming and outgoing cables had been connected together, but were not linked to the ground terminal on the light.

Who knows what other problems lurk in this lot? [Linked Image]

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
pauluk Offline OP
Member
A few more pics as I've started to strip out the old wiring.

A.C. 240V power, LV D.C. & video to the CCTV cameras, plus LV alarm wiring all stuffed into the same trunking:

[Linked Image]

A closer look at that switch bank:

[Linked Image]

I've already found several places where the trunking was hiding "choc-blocked" joins, such as these:

[Linked Image]

And here's the wiring to the xfmr for the spotlight:

[Linked Image]


Oh yes..... And on at least half of the switches/sockets I've opened up so far one or more wires has just fallen straight out of a terminal as I've pulled the device from the box. [Linked Image]


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-20-2006).]

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 745
E
Member
Wow, we could never get away with wiring like that here, especially the service entrance. To be honest, that equipment looks more like a phone system than an electric service. Bad wiring or not, it's difficult for us on the other side of the pond to understand what a "good" installation should look like in the U.K.

That gray "T&E" cable looks like the cable that we use for wiring low-voltage on boats, trailers or RVs. The differences between U.S. and U.K. wiring standards are pretty amazing. Our standards include heavy restrictions.

Perhaps you could post some pics where it is done the right way so we have some idea? Here in the States, we can't ever have individual phase conductors running open like that. They must be within a cable or in conduit.

[This message has been edited by EV607797 (edited 12-20-2006).]


---Ed---

"But the guy at Home Depot said it would work."
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,498
T
Member
You mean the cables running from the meter to the panel? That seems to be an absolute UK particularity that only exists there and in UK influenced countries. In most of continental Europe I've never seen anything like this.

Here in Austria all wiring around the meter is supposed to be hidden by the meter base, which can only be removed by breaking the PoCo seal, making the wiring more or less tamper resistant. I think somewhere I still have pictures of a fairly recent Austrian service.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
pauluk Offline OP
Member
Quote
Wow, we could never get away with wiring like that here, especially the service entrance.
Except for the cables to the contactor dragging along the floor, the wiring you see in photo #1 is fairly typical of indoor service boards here.

The cables between the service fuses & meter, and between the meter and panels are double-insulated; there's another layer of red or black insulation under the gray sheath.

Here's another typical older indoor arrangement, this time a single-phase 2-wire (240V) domestic service:

[Linked Image]

The underground supply from the street enters at the bottom right to the service block/fuse. The unit to the right of the meter is the Economy-7 timeclock, and the black box below the meter is just a junction box. The distribution panel visible to the left is new here, but the rest of the equipment is "traditional" style.

Here's a more modern residential service with the meter accessible from outside in a plastic cabinet, and no added complications of dual-rate tariffs:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The cables disappearing out the back of box run through trunking to the main panel which is located higher up the wall in the inside of the house.

Quote
That gray "T&E" cable looks like the cable that we use for wiring low-voltage on boats, trailers or RVs.
It's our equivalent of Romex, commonly used for residential and light commercial wiring, except that there's no paper under the outer sheath. A couple of people have likened it to American UF cable. See this thread for visual comparisons:

U.S. Romex vs. U.K. \"Twin & earth\"

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
pauluk Offline OP
Member
Quote
Perhaps you could post some pics where it is done the right way so we have some idea?
I've just scanned through a load of photos and I seem to have plenty showing things done wrong and very few showing correct installations!

Anyway, here's a quick run through some more of the issues shown in the pics above.

Photo #3. The unused but still energized 3-ph disconnect. Metal-clad unit with two phases entering through one knockout and the third phase plus neutral entering through another. There are also no grommets or bushings installed to protect the cables. (Note that you can clearly see the double-insulation on the phase conductors in this picture though.)

Photo #4. Apart from the obvious broken lamp holder just hanging on the wires, that's one of our standard round junction boxes on the wall to the right, similar to these . The problem here is that the earth conductors have been brought outside the box for connection instead of being kept inside. It's a fairly common thing to see when somebody needed "just one more" terminal in the box.

I actually started opening up that particular box yesterday and found (a) that the earth conductors pretty much fell straight out of the terminal when I touched it, and (b) that the threads of the plastic screw-on lid where smashed up and it was only the earth conductors pulled over the top which were keeping the cover (loosely!) in place.

Photo #5. Apart from the obvious messy appearance, there's at least one cable which is clearly not properly clipped to the wall. "T&E" (Twin & Earth) can be surface run, but it should be secured properly. And to answer an earlier query about this picture, the black spot around the left-hand junction box turned out to be just a mixture of shadows and dirt. Note once again the earth wires terminated outside that box.

Photos #6 & 7. Cables not properly secured, and just plain messy. [Linked Image]

Photo #8. T&E is for fixed wiring and should not be wired into a 13A plug.

Photo #9. More unsecured cables, and although not really visible in the picture there's another "choc block" join just taped up hanging out of the trunking over the counter area.

Photo #10. Insecure cables again -- Looks as though they were just draped over the partition when it was erected.

Photos #11 & 12. Another fairly typical looking service and panel, except for the cable addition which I described above. This lash-up to keep all the rear lights working when the three units were knocked into one has also left an exceesive load on the remaining lighting circuit.

I didn't even bother to look into the remaining wiring that closely, but just from the couple of items I've come across so far in removing it, I've found spurs from a 30A ring feeding multiple outlets (not just two or three, but a half dozen or more), which is not permitted under our Regs.

In my 12/20/06 post:

Photo #1. LV cables are not supposed to share trunking with 240V power unless the LV cables are insulated to the higher voltage.

Photo #2. The outer sheath of the T&E should extend right into the switch box, not have the internal conductors showing as here. That 4-gang switch was mounted on a very shallow box (the 1/2-inch type), so with the number of cables entering it I doubt that whoever fitted it could get all the cables in there and still be able to fit the front on!

Photo #3. The good old "choc block" strikes again. CLick here to see the connectors in question. These can be used in proper enclosures, but there should not any such joins within the trunking as can be seen here.

Photo #4. Flex (standard "line cord") just connected to the xfmr primary with insulated crimps, no enclosure or anchorage. (I bet those crimps came from the rack of electrical parts at the other end of the store!)

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 360
T
Member
You wouldn't think he'd have a coupla wiper blades for my 71 Spitfire would you?

TW

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,443
Likes: 3
Member
Paul,
In pic #5(first lot), is that a man-hole cover that that wiring runs over?.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
P
pauluk Offline OP
Member
Quote
You wouldn't think he'd have a coupla wiper blades for my 71 Spitfire would you?
Afraid not; they don't carry specific spares for older vehicles. Wiper blades are just the modern "generic" types.

I think you'd probably need to go to a "Classic Parts" type of place. Try here for Triumph spares: [Linked Image]
http://www.jamespaddock.co.uk

Quote
In pic #5(first lot), is that a man-hole cover that that wiring runs over?.
On the ceiling?!

It's just a plywood patch over the plasterboard which in turn has had another painted piece of wood fixed over it. My guess is it was done when the fan was installed.

It's a flat roof on the building, and there's plenty of evidence that it has leaked quite extensively in the past. Several areas of the ceiling inside are "mushy," to say the least (when I tried to drill through to the joist in one spot a whole section about 18 inches square just fell out!).

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5