Thanks dave, and your right everyone must know thier real cost of doing buisness,the only one you are hurting is yourself, if you are not honest about it.Dave i was going to order that flatrate system you just returned.Was it really that bad? I saw a post on here from a-line and i think it is working out well for him.I am also looking for a flatrate systm to use but i dont know which one to go with. If you have any advice on how to price things for the customer or another system let me know. Thanks again for all your replies.