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Square D "All-In-One" Panelboard
by gfretwell - 02/18/20 07:38 PM
15 amp outlets removed due to cell phones
by mbhydro - 02/13/20 11:38 PM
2020 code
by shortcircuit - 02/11/20 04:30 PM
Anyone use rubber amalgamating tape?
by gfretwell - 02/06/20 11:17 PM
Danish type K Sockets
by djk - 02/06/20 06:52 PM
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Facebook follies, bad wiring
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Electrical Nostalgia Jump to new posts
Re: Square D "All-In-One" Panelboard gfretwell 18 hours ago
That must be a more trusting time. The meter is on the load side of the service disconnect and the lugs on the SE appear to be accessible to the user.
9 6,152 Read More
Electrical Nostalgia Jump to new posts
Re: Square D "All-In-One" Panelboard Lostazhell Yesterday at 02:39 AM
I was going through some old pics at the same time as getting "nostalgic" on here. Noticed something.

My panel was built next door to your panel according to the addresses...

"1316-1362 E. 16th St, LA CA"


[Linked Image from electrical-photos.com]
9 6,152 Read More
General Discussion Area Jump to new posts
15 amp outlets removed due to cell phones mbhydro 02/14/20 04:38 AM
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but I have started to see in public places the 5-15R outlets that housekeeping would use in the hallways being either replaced with locking covers (downtown library) or L5-15R receptacles (our NHL Arena).

Winnipeg has a skywalk system downtown and I am guessing that the Library and Arena sections of the skywalk are taking steps to keep people from sitting in the walkways to recharge their cell phones, laptops etc.
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NEC & other Code issues Jump to new posts
Re: 2020 code shortcircuit 02/11/20 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by George Little
It now is required to use GFCI to protect the Disposal receptacle and Instant Hot receptacle in the sink base. The door on the sink base cabinet is not an issue.

Yes...that is correct. They fixed the error they made 2017
6 720 Read More
NEC & other Code issues Jump to new posts
Re: 2020 code George Little 02/11/20 04:51 PM
It now is required to use GFCI to protect the Disposal receptacle and Instant Hot receptacle in the sink base. The door on the sink base cabinet is not an issue.
6 720 Read More
Business Related Discussion Jump to new posts
Re: Anyone use rubber amalgamating tape? gfretwell 02/07/20 04:17 AM
I am not making any money on these but they are starting to go away
2 442 Read More
Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets djk 02/06/20 11:52 PM
TexasRanger: Historically polarisation wouldn't have made much difference for lamps here as they were all bayonet fittings anyway - i.e. two springy pins at the bottom of the bulb holder and no screw contacts. ES fittings have only become common in recent years, but the BC fittings are still the de facto norm.

For whatever reason, Irish electricians tended not to use rings as much as their UK counterparts. It's permitted, but not as common. You'll typically find most socket circuits are on B20 breakers. We also no longer allow rings in kitchens due to the cluster of high wattage appliances likely to be encountered. So, you're supposed to install at least 3 radials.

Schuko's still mentioned in Irish standards as IS-180 and the modern references are just a referral to CEE 7 standards. The original Irish standard documents were quite interesting as they describe in considerable detail how to test Schuko plugs i.e. overloading them with higher amperages for considerable periods of time and even dropping them from a standard height onto various surface types.

The main barrier to change here would be just the huge inconvenience of it. Also, BS1363 sockets are flat and require very shallow wall boxes relative to Schuko. The flush versions are much tidier looking and don't catch fluff, grease etc. The plugs are rather bulky however, although as I was mentioning they are getting slimmer due to recent amendments to the standard that allows for folding pins and smaller plug bodies.

The main risk we have is the UK wandering off into some completely non-compliant standards. It wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that they might say start accepting products certified in Mainland China if that were part of some trade deal etc etc.
...

As for IEC 60906

From what I read, the main objectors to it were the UK and Germany, both of whom made technical arguments against it. So, it never progressed in Europe.

You certainly could make a Schuko or French socket with an extra hole that would accommodate IEC 60906 in the medium term. It would just be like a neater version of the Italian sockets that do similar, as AFAIK IEC 60906 would fit inside an existing Schuko outlet.

You could also do a BS1363 socket with IEC 60906 sockets on a double plate. For example, this page shows BS1363 13amp and BS546 2amp sockets with local fusing on on a single double plate. There's no particular reason you couldn't do similar with a 16 amp fuse for a IEC 60906 socket.


See no. 10 :

https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/British1.html

https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/GB/MEM-BS1363+546_socket.jpg

I would assume in Ireland we won't do anything unless it becomes absolutely apparent that using BS1363 is more inconvenient than switching back to Schuko. However, in the 1960s and 70s and well into the early 90s it was common enough to get items delivered with continental plugs and just cut them off and fit Irish ones. That could once again become the norm.

There's no way we'd adopt IEC 60906 unless the whole of the EU was doing it. It would be absolutely no advantage to do it on our own. We'd just be jumping from BS1363 to a system that was still incompatible with grounded European plugs.

It seems a bit of a weird choice for South Africa, given the size of that market. CEE 7 would have made more sense.
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Business Related Discussion Jump to new posts
Re: Anyone use rubber amalgamating tape? grich 02/06/20 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
...
Sure you don't need any? My wife is starting to make fun of me wink
I still have 180 left


My wife did that with some cryotubes she was going to use as geocaching containers...thought she bought 5 dozen, it was five cases at 100 per case. Started selling them at 10-cents a pop. Made her money back and then some. smile
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets Texas_Ranger 02/05/20 12:10 AM
Yes, terminating the wires properly is crucial! All burning I've seen was from loose wires, once even in a moulded plug (on a dishwasher)!
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets dsk 02/04/20 11:29 AM
Electric storage heaters are the common way to heat watere in Scandinavia, here in Norway we have had pretty much problems with those socets on heaters with more than 1500W elements, so new storage heters are not alowed to have schuco plugs unless the effect is less than 1500W (we have had 2kW storage heater in my home since 1988, and never had a problem) smile

[Linked Image from elsjekk-as.no]

By my opinion, it is not the plug and socket who is the problem, but for the most how the wire is terminated in 1) The plug, and 2) The socket. I keep an eye on such things and on 2 washing macines, I felt hot plugs, changed the molded plug to a new one, and the problem was solved. It seems to be important to use end ferrules.
[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]


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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets Texas_Ranger 02/04/20 10:46 AM
1) Polarisation is mainly an issue with ES floor and table lamps. Most of these have a Euro plug, which isn't polarised in any type of socket.
2) There are non-polarised CEE 7/5 sockets, or more precisely, mirrored double sockets with the earth pins in the centre.
3) One could easily design sockets that accept either CEE 7/4, 7/7 and IEC 60906 or 7/6, 7/7 and IEC 60906 plugs for an easy transition
4) The biggest issue trying to replace BS1363 with anything else is the unfortunate fact that BS1363 sockets can be on circuits up to 32 amps and rely on fuses in the plugs for short-circuit protection. On the other hand, Ireland requires any electrical work to be carried out by professionals, with hefty fines of up to 6000 Euros for DIY work, so safely upgrading existing installations doesn't seem impossible. Ring final circuits would have to be split into two radials, radials could be downgraded, provided they aren't too large.
5) Shuttered Schuko sockets are readily available and becoming more and more common. Some EU countries already require them everywhere, others in places like kindergartens.

On a side note regarding circuit overcurrent protection: more careful Germans tend to worry about the capacity of Schuko sockets to carry the rated 16 amps for extended periods of time (some claim manufacturers only rate them for 1 hour at 16 amps and 10 amps continuously but I haven't found any reliable sources for that, many people get seriously confused by the historic 10-/16~ rating) and especially moderate overloads, as a B or C16 MCB can survive 1.45 times its rated current for up to an hour. The French on the other hand happily install identical sockets on C20 MCBs, according to one source even C25.
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General Discussion Area Jump to new posts
Re: what would you do? gfretwell 02/04/20 01:35 AM
We decided to leave sleeping dogs lie. To get to that receptacle with 12ga wire would involve drywall and we decided it was more than legal when it was installed and it was just going to stay. The receptacle in the other bath is wired the same way, on another dedicated 15, with no other outlets. We decided that is plenty. My guess is the next buyer will tear the house down anyway. That is real popular with PreFIRM houses on waterfront lots around here.
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets dsk 02/02/20 03:36 PM
Here in Norway we live in a house from the 80-ies, and we have these in all rooms where it is no grounded installations like pipes or concrete floors who might lead to ground. Pretty equal to danish ungrounded, but her we have a floating ground and no Neutral.
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets djk 01/31/20 06:37 PM
The new South African plug came from an attempt by the IEC and CENELEC to come up with a harmonised European plug for 230V 50Hz countries, but it was never adopted due to concerns it would cost a fortune and have no net benefit for European consumers.

It's basically a modernised version of the Swiss system, and had the advantage of remaining compatible with 2-pin, 2.5amp CEE 7/16 plugs which are on most small electronics, mobile phone chargers etc while being recessed, and incapable of accepting Schuko/French earthed plugs.

The downside is that it's also incompatible with common European ungrounded 'contour' plugs - i.e what you'd typically find on a vacuum cleaner or similar appliances.

In general I think Schuko and the French system are safe, at least when shuttered. Like BS1363 they're rather too bulky for what they are.

BS1363's switch is entirely optional. It's really only there as a convenience feature, not a safety one. A lot of items e.g. in the kitchen remain permanently plugged in. So, you just switch them off at the switch. It's the same with say my TV/cable box etc or office, I'd just switch it off at the wall, not unplug it and have to dig around to find the plug again to reconnect it.

The only thing mandatory on BS1363 is shutters and sheathed pins. Obviously earth is also mandatory on all items but the issue with huge 3 pin plugs is largely now over come with many devices, particularly mobile phone chargers having a folding pin for the earth (required to open the socket). A lot of these devices are no longer really any bulkier than 2-pin CEE 7/16 Europlug equivalents.

Samsung mobile phone charger with pin folded - just lift up and insert. These have proven extremely reliable and are common now image: https://bit.ly/390CDOz

If BS1363 had that configuration with the earth pin close down like that all the time, it would be a FAR more practical connector. It could have been done that way with modern materials, but they were really designed with a big old bakelite, rewirable plug in mind.
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets dsk 01/31/20 04:04 PM
Maybe the IEC C19 connector are more suitable, non locking, not to big and polarized?
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...783WsYCU5ldUcZ-2RH5P5sdFN33aTLROFqqW_yM4[/img]
[Linked Image from media.rs-online.com]

dsk
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets dsk 01/31/20 03:45 PM
I find this very interesting, even when we are slightly on the edge of the thread. What socket will be the safest?
By my opinion not the Schuko, even when it is pretty safe. The Swiss or new South African looks extremely safe, and polarized. The BS1363 plug with fuse will help to isolate a faulty unit, I see no reason for the switch. On the other hand BS1363 or not exactly small and elegant.

Then we have completely different standards. Powercon looks like a good solution for me :[Linked Image from ]

Maybe to difficult to handle?

dsk
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets djk 01/31/20 02:36 PM
It wouldn't be impossible for Danish manufacturers to produce CEE 7/5 (French) or CEE 7/4 that were compatible with Danish boxes for retrofitting purposes. I guess the recess would be perhaps an issue if they're shallow, in comparison to a flush-flat socket, but there are French designs with relatively shallow boxes too.

Italy's seemingly moving to Schuko by gradual osmosis. The Italian standard seems to be still there, but there were loads of buildings with Schuko sockets installed that weren't hybrid types. From what I gather too most appliances seem to ship with CEE 7 plugs.

I'd nearly prefer the French approach - at least there's a possibility of polarising it and the current generation of socket outlets seem to incorporate mandatory shuttering. There's also a flat version that has a push-in front.

https://www.legrand.fr/catalogue/prise/prise-de-courant-avec-terre-celiane-surface-avec-plaque-blanc

They also seem to be made as a single unit, even if they've clip on facia plates. The design is a lot more like BS1363. Schuko outlets seem to be quite different with the removable front plate that exposes the innards of the socket.

It's going to be interesting to see how Ireland deals with post-Brexit EU as the supply chains will quite likely change towards continental ones, which will result in a lot of appliances arriving with Schuko and CEE 7/X plugs again.

We used to use Schuko decades ago, you'd certainly see plenty of it in the 1960s. However, we standardised on BS1363, which is IS401 plug (IS411 socket) here.

At present there's no real discussion going on about it but, I would assume that if it became problematic we might ultimately shift back.

There are a couple of scenarios where it could become problematic:

1) The UK drifts away from CE and European harmonised electrical standards for appliances. That could result in appliances manufactured for the UK market becoming unmarketable in Ireland. So, we would have to shift to continental supply chains.

2) The BS1363 standard itself could end up incompatible with harmonised European standards, although frankly that's extremely unlikely. The current plan is that we will just maintain it as IS401 / and IS 411 and would get approvals for it via the NSAI here.

I can't really see a situation where the UK wanders off into lax standards, and I would assume that most International manufacturers are likely to continue as normal. The only situations that could perhaps arise is if the UK were to say start accepting some future Chinese standards or harmonising with Australia and NZ and so on.

However most of these things are ultimately coordinated by bodies like the IEC and CENELEC is not an exclusively EU body, although its standards are compulsory within the EU, there are other members e.g. Turkey, Switzerland etc. Even the likes of the USA are associate/observer members.

It'll be interesting to see what happens though!

My personal preference in Ireland would be that if we did switch, it would be to the French CEE 7/5 system - possibility of keeping it polarised and also the contemporary French / Belgian sockets contain mandatory shutters which would keep continuity with standards we've had since the introduction of BS1363.

However, from an ease of standardisation the CEE 7/4 Schuko socket outlets might be more of an open standard and I assume would could still mandate shutters on those.
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets andey 01/31/20 09:22 AM
I didn't expect they were using so many Schuko plug devices in denmark, running ungrounded. That's quite disappointing and a very low safety level for denmark. I wonder what their electrical injury rate is compared to the rest of europe.

Also, the breaker panel in you video is really no masterpiece.
2 Wires in a breaker terminal is usually legal in europe, when the manufacturer of the breaker allows it.
But 5 wires in one breaker terminal, that's really just unprofessional.
They should have used a single wire going off the breaker and then install a junction box to split to all the other cables.
Maybe the buddy of the landlord installed it...
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Business Related Discussion Jump to new posts
Anyone use rubber amalgamating tape? gfretwell 01/31/20 12:16 AM
I screwed up at an auction and thought I bought 5 rolls. I got 5 cases (300 rolls). Anybody want some?

***Free***

[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]

It turns out 24 rolls fit well in a medium USPS flat rate box for $15.05.

Sure you don't need any? My wife is starting to make fun of me wink

I still have 180 left


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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets dsk 01/30/20 09:36 PM
It would be great with one common standard for all 230V 50Hz countries, but it will not be easy to do. E.g. the Danish wall boxes are to narrow for the German sockets.

I guess on that they landed on the most common sockets used in EU since all are reasonable safe.

We may only guess how the standard had been today if we just should start on scratch. Even voltage and frequency would probably be different. :-)
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Safety News and Product Recalls Jump to new posts
New TikTok Challenge Posing Serious Risks Admin 01/30/20 04:33 AM
New TikTok Challenge Posing Serious Electrical Risks
Electrical Safety Authority reminds of the dangers of electricity

MISSISSAUGA, ON (January 23, 2020) – The Electrical Safety Authority is issuing a warning to all Ontarians not to participate or share a “challenge” on the social media platform TikTok that could lead to electrical fires and pose a serious safety risk. Despite the electrical damage caused by their actions, some TikTok users continue to put themselves and others at immediate risk for injury or fatality.

“While no known injuries have been reported so far, the popularity of this challenge and the serious risk posed by the actions in these videos are very concerning,” says Dr. Joel Moody, Chief Public Safety Officer, Electrical Safety Authority. “Electricity is unforgiving, and no family should have to endure the pain of losing a loved one or their home because of a social media trend.”

Every year in Ontario, 110 kids under 15 go to the hospital because of a preventable electrical injury. ESA is an administrative authority acting on behalf of the Government of Ontario to ensure that Ontarians can continue to live, work and play free from electrical harm.

ESA encourages parents to talk to their children about safe electrical use. To learn more about electrical safety, visit ESASafe.com/NoSafeShock

Media Release: https://www.esasafe.com/assets/file...enge-Press-Release_Jan.23.2020-FINAL.pdf
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Safety News and Product Recalls Jump to new posts
PCNA Recalls Power Banks Due to Fire / Burn Hazard Admin 01/30/20 04:25 AM
PCNA Recalls Power Banks Due to Fire and Burn Hazards
Recall Date: January 23, 2020
Recall Number: 20-058

Recall Summary


Name of product:
Spare 10,000 mAh Power Banks

Hazard:
The power bank’s lithium-ion battery can overheat and ignite, posing fire and burn hazards.

Remedy:
Dispose

Consumers should immediately unplug and stop using the recalled power banks and dispose of the recalled power banks by following local laws for disposal of lithium-ion batteries.

Consumer Contact:
PCNA at 800-860-1555, from 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. ET Monday through Friday, email at CustomerService@leedsworld.com or visit www.pcna.com and click on the “Recalls” link at the bottom of the page for more information

Pictures available here:
www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2020/PCNA-Recalls-Power-Banks-Due-to-Fire-and-Burn-Hazards

Recall Details
Units:
About 5,000 (about 445 were sold in Canada)

Description:
This recall involves the Spare Power Bank used to charge electronic devices. They have a 10,000 mAh Grade A lithium ion battery, LED indicator lights, and a flashlight. The power banks are white and are decorated with various logos. PO number 1813582 is printed on the back of the power bank. The power banks measure about 5 1/2 inches long by 2 1/2 inches wide.

Incidents/Injuries:
The firm has received one report of fire. No injuries have been reported.

Sold At:
Given to consumers as free promotional products at meetings or events nationwide from July 2019 through September 2019.

Importer(s):
PCNA of New Kensington, Pa., owner of Leedsworld Inc.

Manufactured In:
China
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Photo Gallery Jump to new posts
Facebook follies, bad wiring wa2ise 01/30/20 01:56 AM
facebook web page with the bad wiring

Some comments:
What a safe and effective job...lol
Are we waiting Ignition.?
missing a wire nut by the switch. That's gonna leave a mark. LOL
And the inspector failed it? Damned inspectors
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NEC & other Code issues Jump to new posts
Re: 2020 code sabrown 01/29/20 04:06 PM
Thanks shortcircuit for the partial list. I have just ordered mine and have not received it yet. This gives me a good place to start looking things up.

Shane
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Non-US Electrical Systems & Trades Jump to new posts
Re: Danish type K Sockets djk 01/28/20 10:10 PM
The last time the European Union discussed the issues around plug/socket harmonisation they more or less concluded that the best way forward to allow the CEE 7 family of plugs that fits the Schuko and French type grounded 16 outlets to become the de facto standard across the entire continent.

Only Denmark and Italy (and Switzerland which is non EU) have an alternative system and in both cases, it's just the earthing pin is different, so the majority of appliances with non-grounded plugs will continue to fit without issue.

The proposal was that the non-CEE 7 sockets should only be installed where unavoidable, but that either Schuko or French sockets should be installed in new wiring.

The other proposal was that the BS1363 countries - Ireland, Cyprus and Malta and obviously the UK, but that's now living the EU would just continue as they are, but that the adaptors would be more tightly regulated to allow safe swapping between two plug systems i.e. the 'Rectangular pin system" and the "two round pin system".

So effectively Europe would end up with two acceptable solutions to plugs and sockets, one of which would be CEE 7 and the other BS1363.

There wasn't much movement on any of this stuff since then though and Brexit will have complicated matters further now too.

The general conclusion was that there was no real benefit that outweighs the cost in replacing either BS1363 or Schuko, but that there was a case for phasing out the Danish and Italian systems as they provided no real technical barriers to replacement nor did they provide any advantages that were worth retaining.

As a non-EU country, the Swiss system was not really even discussed.
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