ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
twh 10
jraef 4
Recent Posts
Dryer, Range grounding from "Main" panel
by gfretwell. 05/24/17 09:35 PM
210.70 / Wall Switch / When adopted?
by gfretwell. 05/24/17 09:18 PM
Any UL 508 experts out there?
by sparkyinak. 05/23/17 11:04 PM
Heat pump conundrum
by sparkyinak. 05/21/17 08:49 PM
Interesting week
by HotLine1. 05/20/17 11:57 AM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
236,738 Are you busy
171,748 Re: Forum
164,689 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 51 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#93544 - 05/30/05 08:54 PM CB as disconnect means  
Electric Ian  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 133
MA, USA
I'm confused. 422.31(B) allows the branch circuit breaker to serve as the disconnecting means even if not within sight of the appliance as long as the breaker is capable of being locked in the open position.
Aren't ALL circuit breakers capable of being locked in the open position thru use of a lockout device??


2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#93545 - 05/30/05 09:26 PM Re: CB as disconnect means  
George  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 375
The lockout device needs to be present. Often times that means installed in the CB box.


#93546 - 05/30/05 10:06 PM Re: CB as disconnect means  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
You should be able to use the cover of the service panel if there is a lock on the cover, for a means of disconnect also.


#93547 - 05/31/05 12:05 AM Re: CB as disconnect means  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,080
Estero,Fl,usa
Around here they usually want the "within sight" disconnect, even though the code does allow a lockable breaker. I tend to agree.
It is hard enough to get a tech to turn off the disconnect when it is close. If he has to climb down from the attic, get a padlock from his truck, move all the crap the homeowner has piled in front of the panel yada yada ... he will work the unit hot. Most local AHJs around here feel the same way.


Greg Fretwell

#93548 - 05/31/05 08:17 PM Re: CB as disconnect means  
Tom  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,044
Shinnston, WV USA
Ian,

The provision for locking or adding a lock requires the installation of a separate piece of hardware that will remain in place. See the last sentence of 422.31(B) in the 2005 edition.

Harold,

I don't believe that locking the cover of the panelboard is the same as actually locking the branch- circuit breaker handle in place,

Tom


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.

#93549 - 05/31/05 10:53 PM Re: CB as disconnect means  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
We have had similar discussions in the past, and, as a reminder:
- OSHA rules and NEC requirements differ;
- Until the early '90's there were practically no electrical lock-out devices made;
- Such devices often don't work on older equipment; and,
- There is a lot of perfectly good equipment out there that was made before LOTO was an issue.

So what did we do back then? Most often, we opened the box, disconnected the wires, and maybe taped a sign up. If there was any doubt, we also disconnected the wires at the machine.


#93550 - 06/07/05 10:07 PM Re: CB as disconnect means  
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
Tom,

What is the difference of putting a lock on the breaker or just locking the door of the panel. Now I am not trying to give anyone here a hard time. I am just asking. [Linked Image]


#93551 - 06/07/05 10:17 PM Re: CB as disconnect means  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I would have a problem with locking the panel cover close. What if there was a need turn off or on a different circuit in a hurry? Or worse yet what about an emergency need to get to the main? Now if this is a motor, 430.102(B) Exception makes locking the panel cover out of the question.

Just as a side note- When the last time you saw the key associated with a panel?


George Little

#93552 - 06/08/05 08:16 AM Re: CB as disconnect means  
Yoopersup  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 822
Michigan
Section 422.32 disconnecting means for appliances (if motor driven )Refers you to Part 9 in 430 which States INDIVIDUALLY capable of being locked Read 430.102 Exception . (that whole section refers to locking out the OVERCURRENT Device) They put that in there to make you put breaker locks on the instead of locking the covers.Explaination on page 544 2002 NFPA code handbook


#93553 - 06/08/05 10:02 AM Re: CB as disconnect means  
mvpmaintman  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 123
Manhattan, Kansas, USA
Another reason for locking out the circuit is that most panels of the same series use the same key. So, someone else might energize a circuit inadvertently.



Member Spotlight
TOOL_5150
TOOL_5150
Bay Area
Posts: 61
Joined: August 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.018s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8092 MB (Peak: 0.9858 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-05-25 06:51:19 UTC