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#188381 - 08/04/09 02:57 PM Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires  
Alan Nadon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 399
Elkhart, IN. USA
We had a recent fire in a sprinkled warehouse that caused a problem. A seperate fire pump building was located 100 feet from the warehouse building.
The utility supply went to a transformer bank with utility cut outs. Then it split with one drop to the fire pump building the other drop to the warehouse. Both services were located inside.
The fire in the building got above the sprinklers. The fire was near the service equipment in the building. Because they couldn't get to the service the only other place to shut off the power to the building was at the transformer. If they do that it drops out the fire pump.
For years I have inspected installations where the building and the fire pumps are from the same transformer bank. They comply with the Code. But..............
I never thought about it but that is where the utiltiy usualy cuts power during a fire. Seems like a waste to seperate everything when it all comes from the same transforemers.
I don't see a solution, just a heads up that that sprinkler might not help that much after all.


Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades

#188383 - 08/04/09 04:44 PM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: Alan Nadon]  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Give Murphy credit for this one ...

Look, we can only do our best, and try to address the most expected risks. You can't make anything proof against every eventuality.

With the fire out of reach of the sprinklers .... I wonder if there was a fault with the sprinkler design .... I have to ask what good then pumps would accomplish even if they had continued to operate.

Last edited by renosteinke; 08/04/09 04:45 PM.

#188386 - 08/04/09 08:50 PM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: renosteinke]  
leland  Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
Lowell area, Ma. USA
I'm with 'Reno. Faulty install. Those should all be up heads for this very reason.
If it (fire) gets ahead... The pump don't matter. so....

As with every dilemma,it will 'come out in the wash'.
Sounds like a good day to have insurance!


#188388 - 08/04/09 11:20 PM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: leland]  
frenchelectrican  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 939
Wi/ Paris France { France for ...
That one reason why some area are shying away from electric fire pumps they are going with either diesel or steam turbine fire pumps to advoid that issue.

Merci,Marc


Pas de problme,il marche n'est-ce pas?"(No problem, it works doesn't it?)


#188393 - 08/05/09 10:29 AM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: frenchelectrican]  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,808
Brick, NJ USA
Sounds like a 'bad' sprinkler design. Was the building 'modified' after the original install?



John

#188404 - 08/06/09 12:43 AM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: HotLine1]  
WESTUPLACE  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 251
Kingwood, TX USA
Many times the fire loading exceeds the sprinkler design. The K Mart warehouse burned to the ground several years ago because of this. Buildings need to be inspected after they are filled by a fire protection engineer to see if additional protection is needed. Sometimes sprinklers need to be installed on the shelving. A pallet of camping fuel or lots of sawdust (pressboard) furniture can quickly overtake a standard sprinkler system.


#188409 - 08/06/09 03:06 PM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: WESTUPLACE]  
Alan Nadon  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 399
Elkhart, IN. USA
The fire started in a motor home. The wood paneling and L.P. gas inside finally blew out of the home when the windows went. The fiberglass outer shell kept the sprinklers from reaching the fire. Once it was outside the vehicle it went clear to the roof, above the sprinklers.
WestUP.S. My oldest brother had just been put in charge of construction / buildings for K-mart (East coast) when they lost that warehouse. He said that the steel sprinkler pipes were melting while still discharging water.


Alan--
If it was easy, anyone could do it.

#188452 - 08/09/09 09:42 PM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: WESTUPLACE]  
brianl703  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 166
Manassas, VA
Originally Posted by WESTUPLACE
Many times the fire loading exceeds the sprinkler design. The K Mart warehouse burned to the ground several years ago because of this.


I didn't remember reading about this anywhere, so I did a little Google research and found out why: It happened in 1982. A little more than several years ago, but anyway, here's the NFPA report:

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//MbrSecurePDF/FIFallsTownship.pdf


#188453 - 08/09/09 10:25 PM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: brianl703]  
ameterguy  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 30
Mass
As a utility Meterman, I have voiced my opinion against feeding the fire pumps from the same transformer feeding the building. I have been told, that this is code compliant & per spec, but that does not make it right. (One customer told me he was only installing the fire pump for the insurance discount, because his building would never have a fire...)

I know if we respond to a building fire, the first thing we do is pull the cutouts to deenergize the building. This is required by the local Fire depts, to eliminate the risk of a Firefighter being electrocuted.

The best fire pump install is a free standing building fed from a different transformer, we have a few of these in our area. They are more expensive to install, but it is the best way to go.


#188456 - 08/09/09 11:30 PM Re: Fire Pumps 695 & real Fires [Re: ameterguy]  
brianl703  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 166
Manassas, VA
Indeed, one of the issues outlined in the NFPA report I linked to is that the booster fire pump was wired after the switchgear, so it lost power when power was cut to the building.


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