ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Potseal 11
Recent Posts
Electrode boilers question
by annemarie1. 04/27/17 01:40 PM
Why cables look like they do
by LongRunner. 04/26/17 09:36 AM
Dimmable LED 2x4 lay in fixtures
by HotLine1. 04/24/17 05:43 PM
Old decora style outlets
by Lostazhell. 04/22/17 07:59 PM
Permit Snafus...AHJs and Contractors Jump in
by gfretwell. 04/22/17 01:11 PM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
234,854 Are you busy
169,644 Re: Forum
162,889 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 49 guests, and 11 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#149439 - 10/04/03 12:57 AM Apprentice Supervision?.  
Trumpy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Over here in New Zealand, there is a re-writing of the rules of Apprentice supervision.
This follows the Electrocution of an Electrical apprentice here, while he was jointing a Network cable and one of the Drop-out fuses were still in, he had Duspol testers with him, but it was unclear wether he knew how to use them correctly.
In the ensuing coroners report and EWRB prosecution, the EWRB found that the Supervisor of Electrical Work (His Boss) never did an adequate Hazard Assessment before leaving the Apprentice to joint the cable, given the apprentices' lack of experience.
This does not say a lot for this guy, but I would like to ask you guys, what would you do if you were to leave a guy doing a job, who has a bit of experience, but you are not sure how far that experience goes?.
How do you guys supervise your young apprentices?. [Linked Image]
BTW, I WOULD have checked to see that the cable was dead and that ALL of the DDO's were out, first!. [Linked Image]
This young fella died pretty cheaply and needlessly.

Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools

#149440 - 10/04/03 07:03 AM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
Pinemarten  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
Edmonton, AB, Canada
In Canada, I heard that a rule exists where an apprentice cannot work on hot circuits unless under the direct supervision of a journeyman.

Any voltage.

The definition of 'direct' to me; means standing right behind him, wearing 'hot gloves' in case I have to pull him away from the 'lesson'.

#149441 - 10/04/03 07:32 AM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
Trumpy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
I hear you there!. [Linked Image]
I supervise a few apprentices from time to time and a few you just have to keep your eye on, but the majority of them know the ways of the world and it is generally a given thing to test before touch.
The biggest thing about the incident that happened over here was the fact that the guy should never have been working on a Network (Distribution Main) cable, as niether the apprentice or his boss were qualified Line Mechanic's.
What had happened was the fact that an excavator operator had dug up the cable and had snapped it, the Neutral screening had contacted two of the 3 phases in the cable, but the other was still live.
The Electrician, had agreed to fix it for the digger driver, before the PoCo found out.
Damn!!, you'd say!! [Linked Image]

Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#149442 - 10/04/03 09:20 PM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
Bjarney  Offline
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
This report brings up two aspects of electrical accidents—one practical and one purely administrative, but fast outpacing practical/field matters.

In the US, in the early 90s, OSHA §1910.331-.335 [which, BTW—is a lot of common sense] requires training in aspects of nominal voltage recognition has prevented a lot of accidents, like the type where a tradesman uses a low-voltage electronic-repair-grade multimeter to determine if a 15kV circuit is live or dead. As can be imagined, results can easily be deadly.

The second aspect is that investigators want to scour the “paper trail” [documentation] of training that the injured received. The attitude of many safety officials on the North American continent is that if training is not adequately documented, it did not happen.

#149443 - 10/10/03 07:23 PM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
Trumpy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Over here, our Electrical apprentices are trained under a "competence-based" training system, where the apprentice advances only after acquiring certain skills, within a given time-frame during their "time".
The most basic of these skills is identifying different supply systems and how to isolate and lock out energy sources,
IMO, any apprentice that can't do this, is probably better off to stay at home.
Even so, a new apprentice to the Electrical trade over here, is required to work under the supervision of a {quote}Suitably qualified person, that has not less than 2 years qualifying experience in the work that the apprentice is undertaking.{end quote}, this will normally last for the first 18 months of the apprenticeship or until the apprentice can show enough initiative to work on thier own.

Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#149444 - 10/11/03 06:18 PM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
pauluk  Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,520
Norfolk, England
Interesting discussion, although having worked as a one-man-band for so many years the question of apprentice supervision isn't one I have to think about too much.

I do remember supervision issues with some of the new guys when I worked with BT (British Telecom). The DC supply busbars around a telephone exchange were probably the area of most concern in day-to-day work. "It's only 50 volts!" was the cry of many newcomers.

In the electronics we had for the satellite links, there was also 28V distribution.

Anyone who scoffed at that as being harmless was taken down one of the equipment bays and shown a large burned patch on the floor, where a tech working on the racks above some years earlier had dropped a wrench across the busbars.

I actually arranged a physical demonstration a couple of times: The demo involved some heavy jumper leads, a coiled length of small-gauge phone wire, and an asbestos mat. You can guess the rest. [Linked Image]

#149445 - 10/12/03 02:07 AM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
Bjarney  Offline
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
West-Southern Inner-Northeast ...
Having conducted a fair amount of trade-based education, there are some serious responsibilities and fundamental principles with trainer and trainee interaction in such a teaching relationship.

Then there is the “can’t have your cake and eat it too” aspect of apprentice education. So much of in-vogue ‘educational mechanics’ seems to be that learning should be “fun” to make it interesting for the student to be successful {or even functional.} Clearly it is not always a basic textbook- or classroom-based learning process.

A series of procedures initiating indelible impressions and thought processes are not always strictly or formally defined. A basic tenet of the relationship is that both agree to teach/learn—above all—safe practices, while trying to best impart thorough knowledge of the hazards and acceptable practices of the trade.

In exchange for increased proficiency on the job, there will be some potentially hazardous tasks learned. [Sometimes procedures might be adapted, rationalized or bastardized causing irreversible injury to the apprentice and others.] Hopefully, the end result of the training effort is improved skills and a reduction in taking unnecessary risks. As the formal apprenticeship ends, the trainer will be long held responsible for habits that the apprentice will extend into later subconscious journey-level routines.

A basic, sometimes unfortunate axiom is, “Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.”

[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 10-12-2003).]

#149446 - 10/13/03 02:30 AM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
Trumpy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
Bjarney and others,
I have always been of the school of thought, that what you learn in the first year of your "time", will stay with you for life.
This is when the steepest part of your "Learning Curve" occurs, this is also the time, that I believe that Safety Practices and Good Testing Methods need to be instilled into a Trainee worker, regardless of what arm of Electrical work they are being trained in.
Having come from a background of two Apprenticeships (Electrician first), I would have liked to have had more time working on the Basics of Electrical systems.
This came clear when I done my Liney's Apprenticeship, but there are Sparkies over here that don't even know the difference between Star(Wye) and Delta (Mesh) systems!. [Linked Image]
I've heard from the odd Apprentice over here, that the Training system is too much like a McD's meal(all to one recipe) and it does not reflect different workplaces, as in a few places over here, do not wire new houses, but they wire new Commercial buildings, the Training book states, that the work can only be done in a new Residential building?!.
This is just silly, when I done my time, it didn't matter where you did the work, just as long as you did it!. [Linked Image]
What are we doing here, training Electricians or breeding race-horses?

Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#149447 - 10/18/03 07:56 AM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
sparky  Offline
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,306
save for time served apprenticed to my brother, who tried his best to keep me outta trouble, i've served a fairly unsafe apprenticeship.

this , as i have found, is rather typical and commonplace here.

OSHA regs, 70E, (et all) manner of safety doctrines were items i had to research myself.

I admit , i have a chip on my shoulder on safety issues here,but i come by it honestly.

#149448 - 10/18/03 08:26 AM Re: Apprentice Supervision?.  
Trumpy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,211
SI,New Zealand
I have to take my hat off to you, although I may not always agree, with your comments, these are ideas built up over a long time of experience, this can NEVER be taken away from a decent Tradesman, which is what you are!.
Call yourself what you will, but, I reckon that any guy that gives thier time to the community, un-paid, especially in an EMS situation, deserves a whopping great pat on the back, I'm talking about you Steve!. [Linked Image]

Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
Posts: 3,439
Joined: October 2000
Show All Member Profiles 

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.017s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8262 MB (Peak: 1.0013 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-04-28 06:21:15 UTC