ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
This anti-theist is priceless!!!
by djk. 11/14/18 07:19 AM
Single phase and what you call it.
by dsk. 11/12/18 11:10 AM
220/230/240V 60Hz Systems
by Albert. 11/07/18 12:48 AM
Black & Decker Recalls Hammer Drills
by Admin. 11/01/18 07:22 PM
New in the Gallery:
What is this for?
Plug terminals
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (djk), 10 guests, and 24 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
System Grounding Optional #97206
02/01/06 04:22 PM
02/01/06 04:22 PM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I am interested in the advantage or disadvantage of corner grounding a 240v or 480v system. Are there any papers out there that give direction on this subject? Also, along that same line, anything on ground indicator lights. Maybe some design professionals will comment.


George Little
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: System Grounding Optional #97207
02/01/06 04:54 PM
02/01/06 04:54 PM
W
winnie  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 649
boston, ma
I had to do quite a bit of reading on this subject, but for a particular installation only, rather than for general use. So I am not remotely qualified as an expert but feel that I have a reasonably informed opinion to offer. My application was a non-NEC compliant installation for temporary power on an experimental aircraft system.:

Ungrounded systems mean that a ground fault won't shut your system down. If you get a _solid_ ground fault, then a small amount of current will flow, and you will be able to continue operation of the system. Your ground fault detection system will tell you of the fault, and you can perform an orderly shutdown, locate the fault, and repair it.

The problem with ungrounded systems is that you don't have a solid voltage reference. Because of the capacitive coupling between the system and ground, if you have an _intermittent_ ground fault, you can actually pump the voltage between the system and ground to levels that substantially _exceed_ the line voltage of the system. This can lead to a situation where a minor fault on one piece of equipment can lead to high voltages and insulation breakdown all over the place.

It is my opinion that a good ground reference and proper breaker coordination are vastly preferable to an ungrounded system.

If you actually require the continuity of service benefits of an ungrounded system, than I would suggest looking at 'high impedance grounded' systems. These are wye systems where the neutral to ground bond is made using a resistor (50-100 ohms on a 480/277V system) that provides a good ground reference but limits ground fault current flow to a low value. Depending upon how the system is designed, the current through a ground fault will be perhaps 2-10 amps, which most circuits will tolerate indefinitely. You need to use the same sort of ground fault detection used for ungrounded systems, but in the event of an intermittent fault you won't see excessive voltages. Even though this is a wye system, under the NEC an impedance grounded system cannot supply line-neutral loads, and is thus limited to the same sort of loads seen on a delta system.

The companies that sell neutral grounding resistors will have a lot to say about the dangers of ungrounded systems and the benefits of resistance grounding [Linked Image]

-Jon

Re: System Grounding Optional #97208
02/01/06 06:52 PM
02/01/06 06:52 PM
Y
Yoopersup  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
Michigan
George
Soares Grounding book covers this quite well as several others . Ground dection lights are only used on the ungrounded Delta.
It also covers impedance neutral grounding. The ungrounded systems I;ve run into have been in Saw Mills and Large Water pumping stations. The impedance neutral systems have been in paper mills.

Re: System Grounding Optional #97209
02/01/06 10:14 PM
02/01/06 10:14 PM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
Thanks Ernie- Excellent reference. I'd forgot about Soares.


George Little
Re: System Grounding Optional #97210
02/02/06 12:53 AM
02/02/06 12:53 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,301
Estero,Fl,usa
Corner grounding simplifies the equipment you need. There are only 2 ungrounded conductors so, with the right breakers, you are basically using single phase equipment.
The only place I have seen it is in sewer lift stations and these are usually special purpose controllers.
You certainly need to read the "qualified personel only" sitckers. It would be real easy to think you are looking at a single phase box. (As Ron White says "happened to me") [Linked Image]
The motors were a tip off.


Greg Fretwell

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
HappyElectrician
HappyElectrician
Penn USA
Posts: 31
Joined: December 2011
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 8
Popular Topics(Views)
251,431 Are you busy
188,646 Re: Forum
178,348 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.033s Queries: 14 (0.009s) Memory: 0.9707 MB (Peak: 1.1093 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-11-14 13:25:42 UTC