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Sub-Panel #96693
12/19/05 08:38 AM
12/19/05 08:38 AM
J
JoeRossi  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26
Washington, NJ
A contractor runs PCV to a detached building. Proper sizing, three wires and has a ground rod at the building.
I give him a red tag for Article 250.52 (NEC2005) in which a lively debate starts.
When you run a sub-panel 3 wire feed or 4 wire feed. I always run 4-wires plus a ground rod. What do you guys think?


Joe Rossi
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Sub-Panel #96694
12/19/05 09:03 AM
12/19/05 09:03 AM
R
Roger  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
N.C.
Joe, although I would run an Equipment Grounding Conductor because of preference, it is not required if 250.32(B)(2) applicable.

Quote
(2) Grounded Conductor Where (1) an equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure, (2) there are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved, and (3) ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s), the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The size of the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of either of the following:
(1) That required by 220.61
(2) That required by 250.122


Roger

Re: Sub-Panel #96695
12/19/05 09:09 AM
12/19/05 09:09 AM
J
JoeRossi  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26
Washington, NJ
Thank you Roger, have a great day


Joe Rossi
Re: Sub-Panel #96696
12/19/05 10:59 AM
12/19/05 10:59 AM
D
Dnkldorf  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
nowhere usa
Roger states that it is not required.. true, but running a seperate EGC would be alot better. It would avoid the whole paralell path thing down the road, when your not there.


Dnk....

[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 12-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 12-19-2005).]

Re: Sub-Panel #96697
12/19/05 11:14 AM
12/19/05 11:14 AM
M
markp  Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 60
Kent, WA, USA
What does 250.52 have to do with 3-wire -vs- 4-wire feeders? Why would you give him a violation of 250.52 when you said he had a rod?


Mark
Kent, WA
Re: Sub-Panel #96698
12/19/05 10:07 PM
12/19/05 10:07 PM
H
HLCbuild  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 209
Herndon,Va USA
Question: As Roger points out, if there is no grounding conductor run with the feeder, the grounded conductor is used to bond metal frames, etc....does this mean that the neutral bar is not insulated/isolated from the ground bar as it would be if this subpanel was located in the main building where the service is located?

Re: Sub-Panel #96699
12/20/05 02:23 AM
12/20/05 02:23 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,166
Estero,Fl,usa
HC ... Yes, it looks just like a service entrance.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Sub-Panel #96700
12/20/05 03:15 AM
12/20/05 03:15 AM
E
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
"I give him a red tag.... in which a lively debate starts."

The color red gets most really lively. [Linked Image]

So did he get a green one yet, or an orange?
(That is, if there are no bonded metalic paths between buildings or not.)


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Sub-Panel #96701
12/20/05 09:53 AM
12/20/05 09:53 AM
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Even the IAEI, when they presented this application to three of it's own experts, got four answers!

Codewise, the guy can probably get away wit only a ground rod, treating the feeder as if it were a separate service.

I am something of a simpleton, and like to consider the "service" to be where the PoCo drops in, with everything from that point to be part of the same system. But I can see where the code might not limit me to that approach.

Re: Sub-Panel #96702
12/21/05 08:14 AM
12/21/05 08:14 AM
J
JoeRossi  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 26
Washington, NJ
In my construction days I always ran four wires. I learned fast that just because the contractor does not do it like I do means it is incorrect.
Yes red-tagged always give lively debates but I always call the contractor when it is going to cause extra work and money.
I gave him a white/purple sticker, that is what New Jersey gives out when the final passes.
Thnaks for all your feed back


Joe Rossi
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