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#94763 - 08/13/05 03:40 AM AFI's 2 pole????  
watersparkfalls  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 220
Washington...Not DC
do they make two pole afi breakers?
and if so how expensive are they?
with wire costs through the roof i wonder if the difference in breakers offset the cost of a seperate 14-2 home run in other words can one run a 14-3 afi circuit for two bedrooms?

funny qoute
"14-2 15-2 whatever it takes" micheal keaton in mr mom.

dunno where that came from but had to type it.

h2O


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#94764 - 08/13/05 08:23 AM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
macmikeman  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 717
Honolulu, Hawaii
There has been a 14-4 romex and a 12-4 romex cable available for quite some time now which is probably your most cost effective solution. It has a black conductor, a red conductor , a white conductor
and a white with a red stripe conductor, and a bare ground conductor. As far as box fill goes you are going to have to treat it as two 14-2's or 12-2's.


#94765 - 08/13/05 01:15 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
e57  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
S.F.,CA USA
Cutler-Hammer does (~$60), not sure if SqD does, but Murray does NOT. CH even has a individual trip 2-pole, as well as regular 2P.

As mentioned, I think 14/4, or 12/4 cable is better option.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason

#94766 - 08/13/05 01:17 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
gfretwell  Online Content


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,121
Estero,Fl,usa
Bear in mind when you go over 3 current carrying conductors you start derating. The 90c conductor usually takes care of that but in a hot attic it could still be an issue.

BTW What do you think of as a typical attic ambient?


Greg Fretwell

#94767 - 08/13/05 02:27 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
Larry Fine  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 693
Richmond, VA
Okay, starting with the most important:

It was "220, 221, whatever it takes" in response to Martin Mull's "You putting in 220?"

Second, what would be the advantage of running a 14-3 over two 14-2's? Certainly not the cost, as 3-conductor cables cost about twice as much as 2-conductors do.


Larry Fine
Fine Electric Co.
fineelectricco.com

#94768 - 08/13/05 02:36 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
gfretwell  Online Content


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,121
Estero,Fl,usa
One advantage of a multiwire circuit is voltage drop. If this is on the other end of a big house, that could be important.
Both cost and voltage drop go out the window if you use a specialty item like 14-4.


Greg Fretwell

#94769 - 08/13/05 04:54 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
Gregtaylor  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 212
Boise, Idaho, USA
I don't do this stuff often, but it is my understanding that you cannot run a 14/3 for two afci circuits and expect to share the neutral as an Edison circuit. Same with GFCI circuit breakers. You would have to run 14/4 or 12/4 providing a seperate neutral for each circuit. So what then would be the point of a 2 pole circuit breaker? Would you be planning to terminate both circuits on the same yoke? That would be the only circumstance I can think of that would need a 2 pole breaker.


#94770 - 08/13/05 06:11 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
gfretwell  Online Content


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,121
Estero,Fl,usa
I think H2O was looking for a 2 pole that would support an Edison like the 2 pole spa GFCI


Greg Fretwell

#94771 - 08/13/05 07:30 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
watersparkfalls  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 220
Washington...Not DC
It was "220, 221, whatever it takes" in response to Martin Mull's "You putting in 220?" ahhh i stand corrected. thanx larry.
but i think the labor is lessend when one uses 3-wire over two..landing in panel,stapeling,running straight and pretty not twisted and such. plus its easier(imho)to run 3-wire hommies to hall outlets for some crazy reason if one must troubleshoot(who said trouble?). thats just the way i learned.

yes when i said 2 pole i ment individual trip. two afi's sharing a neut.

Bear in mind when you go over 3 current carrying conductors you start derating.

gfretwell wouldn't the neutral only count as current carrying if there were harmonic distoration present granted one could plug anything into an outlet and present this but should we anticipate this? dunno just asking...knowledge is a beautiful thing!

14-4 huh? will look into this wire a simple solution to a shared nuet.

thanks guys appreciate the help.

h20


#94772 - 08/13/05 07:38 PM Re: AFI's 2 pole????  
iwire  Offline
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
North Attleboro, MA USA
If you use the 14 or 12/4 cables you will have two 2 wire circuits.

That is 4 current carrying conductors.

The neutral of a two wire circuit is always considered by the NEC to be a current carrying conductor.

If you ran these two circuits using a multiwire branch circuit in 12 or 14/3 from a 240/120 service you would only have two current carrying conductors as the neutral will only carry the imbalance of current between the two circuits.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts


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