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#93480 06/03/05 09:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
D
Member
Bob, Just because you bond something to a ground electrode system, that doesn't make that item a ground electrode, does it?

Because 250.50 directs us to bond the water pipe, this doesn't make that water pipe a ground electrode.

Dnk....

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#93481 06/03/05 05:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 681
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DNK
250.50 directs us to bond TOGETHER all of the electrodes that are present(05).

250.52(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding

This is where I think your confusion lies.
.52 shows us the electrodes that are permitted to be used for electrode, .50 tells us the ones that are present are required to be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system, cold water being one of them.

If the cold water is used for the electrode, it is required to be supplemented. The reason for this is not because it is not a good electrode (on the contrary), but because so many repairs today eliminate the copper pipe with plastic, and the plumbers making these repairs are not worried about our grounding electrode systems.


Pierre Belarge
#93482 06/03/05 08:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
D
Member
Believe me when I tell you, I am not confused over this.
I am just looking for the answer that will get me my Burger Dong chicken sandwich back.

But I still haven't got the answer.


Dnk....

#93483 06/03/05 09:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
R
Moderator
I think you have...you just haven't accepted it yet [Linked Image]


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
#93484 06/04/05 08:58 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 23
T
Member
Dnk, 250.50 addresses grounding electrodes.

250.104 addresses bonding of a water pipe, probably in the event that it is not eligible as a grounding electrode.

You are confusing your concepts.

Quote
Dnk wrote:
250.52 States that a water pipe is PERMISABLE, does not state it is mandatory.
Open your book! [Linked Image]

250.52(A)(1) defines the grounding electrode. It doesn't state whether or not to use it at all. That is accomplished through 250.50.

Quote
I threw every argument you guys have tossed out there, and all it states is it SHALL be bonded to the Grounding Electrode System.

The whole PERMISSABLE thing cost me dinner.
Are you talking about 250.52(A)'s title?

It's meaningless when taken in context of 250.50's requirement.

Quote
Bob, Just because you bond something to a ground electrode system, that doesn't make that item a ground electrode, does it?

Because 250.50 directs us to bond the water pipe, this doesn't make that water pipe a ground electrode.

The water pipe's inclusion in 250.52(A) makes it a grounding electrode, not a "bonding electrode", as if there is such a thing.

The title of 250.52 is "Electrodes Permitted for Grounding." This section's whole purpose for being is to create a Grounding Electrode System. How can you single out an electrode and say it's not really performing the same function as it's counterparts in (2) through (7)?

[This message has been edited by The_Judge (edited 06-04-2005).]

#93485 06/04/05 09:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,064
D
Member
Open your book?
What kind of comment is that?

Let's look at the Code on cd with the commentary for a second.

""Section 250.53(D)(2) specifically requires that rod, pipe, or plate electrodes used to supplement metal water piping be installed in accordance with 250.56. This requirement clarifies that the supplemental electrode system must be installed as if it were the sole grounding electrode for the system. If 25 ohms or less of earth resistance cannot be achieved with one rod, pipe, or plate, another electrode (other than the metal piping that is being supplemented) must be provided. One of the permitted methods of bonding a supplemental grounding electrode conductor to the primary electrode system is to connect it to the service enclosure.
The requirement to supplement the metal water pipe is based on the practice of using a plastic pipe for replacement when the original metal water pipe fails. This type of replacement leaves the system without a grounding electrode unless a supplementary electrode is provided. """""

If we are required to supplement the water pipe with aditional electrodes,and these supplemental electrodes are required to be the sole grounding electrodes for the service, then the water pipe must not be too reliable of a source. This would mean the water pipe does not cut it as a grounding electrode.

Or am I still reading this wrong?

Dnk......

#93486 06/04/05 10:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
In my opinion yes, you are reading it wrong.

250.50 applies to the list in 250.52 equally.

I have two questions.

1) How did you single out the water pipe?

2) In your opinion are there any items in 250.52 that are required to be used as grounding electrodes or is it just a water pipe that is excluded?


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
#93487 06/04/05 10:29 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 23
T
Member
Quote
Open your book?
What kind of comment is that?
I'm sorry, that was over the line. I apologize, no offense intended.

I just can't understand how you can pick one item out of a list entitled "Electrodes Permitted for Grounding" and decide it's not really a grounding electrode, but a ground rod (which is no unreliable that it is all but required to install two of them when used) is.

Again, sorry. [Linked Image]

#93488 06/04/05 02:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,507
G
Member
I have an idea: Lets each of us kick in and buy Dnkldorf a dinner so he'll lighten up. Or better yet- Lets all of us get our black highlighter and high light the text following 250.52(A)(1). [Linked Image]


George Little
#93489 06/04/05 02:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,789
Likes: 14
G
Member
I haven't seen a metal water pipe installed in over 20 years. Everyone just "pastes PVC pipe" here.


Greg Fretwell
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