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#92329 05/08/05 01:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 32
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#92330 05/08/05 01:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
Few places if any actually adopted Article 80 when it was Article 80 in the front of the code.

Now for 2005 it is located in Annex G which is not part of the code and serves no purpose unless specifically adopted in your area.

Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
#92331 05/08/05 04:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 693
Around these parts (Va.), the only time an entire structure must be brought to present code is if more than half of the building is being renovated; otherwies, a service upgrade does not require new/updated branch circuits.

Otherwise, I agree with Greg; any new work must meet the code in effect at the time. One new receptacle installed in a bedroom must be grounded and have AFCI protection, even if the rest of the room is knob-and-tube supplied.

Additionally, it's easy to forget that the term "outlet" refers to any electrical access point for utilization equipment (meaning just about everything except switches), not just receptacles. Why is this important? Because:

Code version should be included with code references given here; for example, the '99 NEC requires all bedroom receptacles be AFCI protected, while the '02 NEC requires all outlets (lighting, smokes, etc.) be so protected.

(spelling corrections)

[This message has been edited by Larry Fine (edited 05-08-2005).]

Larry Fine
Fine Electric Co.
#92332 05/09/05 12:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 625
"Congress shall not pass any ex poste facto laws".

Since I've seen that misquoted a couple times here already, and since I think it's important to accurately quote the Constitution to avoid "urban rumors" about what it says (for example, nowhere does it say anything about "separation of church and state," a misquote which is causing all kinds of strife in this country; but that's a whole 'nuther argument...), I'll mention that the correct quote from Article I, Section 9 is:

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(If this seems a bit pickly, I apologize. I'm rather a zealot, in the mold of Clarence Thomas or Janice Rogers Brown, about reading what the Constitution actually says. And I agree that, in this particular case, the two statements mean the same thing.) [Linked Image]

Oh, and many, many kudos for actually knowing that that's in the Constitution. If you asked ten kids from our local high school who just finished the class that's supposed to cover the Constitution, I'd be surprised if more than one knew it said that. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by SolarPowered (edited 05-09-2005).]

#92333 05/09/05 07:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,370
Likes: 1
Cat Servant
Thank you, Solar, for looking up the exact quote. I also agree with your often, regulatory wonks look at me as if I am from Mars when I suggest this limit to their enforcement authority.

Now, considering the reality of remodelling, does anyone still doubt the need for an AFCI receptacle?

#92334 05/09/05 08:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 354
pdh Offline
So you go on a job where the homeowner wants to tap an existing outlet and install a 2nd one about 2 feet away so he can quit using an extension cord (because the last one had a poor connection and caused a little fire).

You arrive and find a 100 year old house, nothing is grounded but the neutral bond at the entrance, and every thing is protected by fuses. How much does it cost to extend that circuit so this home will be at least one step safer, and so the homeowner (who can't afford to replace the panel or rewire the house, much less both) won't have to keep using an extension cord (something the NEC seems to want to get rid of).

Of course one lower cost option can be a tiny 2-circuit subpanel right next to the old main with a couple of AFCI breakers in it.

How about this: submit a code change request to the NEC for 2008 (6 months remain to do this) that gets very specific about requiring AFCI whenever an existing non-AFCI protected circuit in a location that requires one is extended. They might accept it. Or they might refuse it and say the code already covers that. Or they might refuse it and say that this is not desireable. This could readily be a way to get an answer out of the appropriate committee (sometime over the next couple of years).

#92335 06/23/05 07:26 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 11
Re: Ex post facto.
"No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."

Warning, We may need a lawyer.

A law passed today making you guilty if you did have an AFCI installed yesterday. This is ex post facto.
A law passed today requiring that starting tomorrow all circuits in use shall have AFCI protection.
Then you could either upgrade them tonight or shut them off. This law would NOT be ex post facto!

[This message has been edited by JimMichaels (edited 06-23-2005).]

#92336 06/23/05 07:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,788
Likes: 14
I have a 57 Chevy. If I drive it without a seatbelt on I will get a ticket. They have forced me to install seatbelts "ex post facto".
Where is the difference?

Greg Fretwell
#92337 06/23/05 09:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,370
Likes: 1
Cat Servant
I can't say I follow your example, gfretwell. I know that here in Nevada such a ticket would not hold up, assuming the vehicle has not been signifigantly altered (to the point DMV has to re-certify it). And, in meighboring California, they are not able to apply current air pollution regs to older vehicles; they can only require them to meet factory specs when they were made.

Now, if you are saying that courts are unreliable, unfair, and illogical, and sometimes overstep their bounds....well, that's such a classic complaint Solomon put it in the Bible. That doesn't take away the fact that "no retroactive laws" is one of our basic principles.

Which is why I fight such attempts whenever I can.

#92338 06/24/05 11:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,788
Likes: 14
I don't like ex post facto laws either but they do creep into the codes through the back door.

BTW you really need to look at each state law before you make blanket statements about retrofitting seatbelts. In Florida the only exception in 316.614 F.S. is for pickup trucks
"(b) The number of front seat passengers of a pickup truck required to wear a safety belt pursuant to this section shall not exceed the number of safety belts which were installed in the front seat of such pickup truck by the manufacturer."
Autos are not exempted.

Greg Fretwell
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