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If Available?? #92025
02/20/05 03:52 PM
02/20/05 03:52 PM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,498
Michigan USA
Plan Review sumittal showed a 800a SUSE rated Transfer switch including overcurrent protection located about 10' from the xformer and generator. The Service point is at the Transfer switch. The building it will be serving is located about 150' away. Question is- What should I expect to see as the Grounding Electrode for the Service?? And, should the contractor run an EGC with the feeder to the building?? There is a water pipe electrode located in the building. Next Question- Do I have to float the neutral??

I don't know if the standard, consisting of metal post and cross members is considered to be a structure.

Your comments are invited [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 02-20-2005).]


George Little
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: If Available?? #92026
02/21/05 02:22 AM
02/21/05 02:22 AM
G
gfretwell  Online Content

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,365
Estero,Fl,usa
When I have seen things like this I see a rod or two at the service disconnect and a 3 wire feeder (4 for 3p) with the neutral grounded at the building.


Greg Fretwell
Re: If Available?? #92027
02/21/05 12:00 PM
02/21/05 12:00 PM
H
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
If I am reading the question correctly, I think a question that should be asked is, "Is the transfer switch breaking the neutral conductor?" If so, then the Gen. is a Seperatly Derived system. If not, then the transfer switch and equipment can use the grounding from the original building.

Re: If Available?? #92028
02/21/05 01:19 PM
02/21/05 01:19 PM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,498
Michigan USA
Harold- the issue is whether to run a EGC with the feeder to the building. Greg says "No" and I agree. If we run an EGC then we would have to float the neutral in the building. If we don't, then we can use the Grounding Electrode in the building (water pipe and supplement) and run a GEC to the electrode and Bond the Neutral in the building.

At the Transfer Switch I haven't addresed the breaking of the neutral since it's not part of the problem. The neutrals of both systems are using the same bond screw and Grounding Electrode of the transfer switch.

The opposing view on this subject is that the water pipe electrode in the building because it is "available on the premises" must be used and connected to the Service Disconnect/transfer switch located remote from the building.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 02-21-2005).]


George Little
Re: If Available?? #92029
02/21/05 03:58 PM
02/21/05 03:58 PM
Y
Yoopersup  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
Michigan
George
250.32
If theres any parallel path on the neutral such as (metal conduit, Gas or fuel lines, water lines, Control wires(generator) ect .Then the fourth (gr) wire is required And Float neutral in the Dn. stream Panel.

Re: If Available?? #92030
02/21/05 05:00 PM
02/21/05 05:00 PM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,498
Michigan USA
Yooper- There aren't any parallel paths. And I think that we'd have to consider the assembly (Transfer/Service Disconnect switch and Generator) at the remote location as a "structure" for us to be able to for go the EGC.
I still like Greg's approach.


George Little
Re: If Available?? #92031
02/21/05 06:40 PM
02/21/05 06:40 PM
S
shortcircuit  Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 610
massachusetts
George...I'll take a stab at this...

If available on the premises "at each building or structure" is what 250.50 states. You wouldn't use the water pipe electrode at the building 150 feet away for the structure supporting the service rated transfer equipment.

I would say that you are allowed to bring either a 3 wire, or a 4 wire with EGC to the building, but the 4 wire would require that you float the neutral at the building. In either case, a electrode will be established at the building and at the structure for the service.

Also the building will need its own disconnect and it must be suitable as service equipment.

shortcircuit

Re: If Available?? #92032
02/21/05 07:10 PM
02/21/05 07:10 PM
G
George Little  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,498
Michigan USA
Okay Shortcircuit- So it's you and me and Greg that agree [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 02-21-2005).]


George Little
Re: If Available?? #92033
02/21/05 10:57 PM
02/21/05 10:57 PM
Y
Yoopersup  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 849
Michigan
No remote Annunciator For the Generator???

[This message has been edited by Yoopersup (edited 02-21-2005).]

Re: If Available?? #92034
02/22/05 10:48 PM
02/22/05 10:48 PM
H
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
OK, how about this one. If you run 3 wires from the house to the out building (We can call this a sub service) then you have to bond the neutrals and ground together in the out building. If you run 4 wire out to the out building (We can call this a sub panel type) then you would isolate the neutrals and grounds in the sub panel in the out building. This would be OK as long as there was no parallel paths. (Which you said that there isn't any.) So I feel that you could bring either a 3 or a 4 wire out to the out building. Your choice.

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