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Lighting Contactors #89866 10/21/04 07:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
M
mustangelectric Offline OP
Member
Hi,
I have a 22K sqf office complex with a corridor that surrounds the interior rooms and there is several exits leading from the corridor to the outside.

I want to allow the occupants to control the lights from several locations throughout the corridor.

Is switching rows or groups of lights best accomplished by using three ways and four ways that will control a lighting contactor/s?

I am thinking of using this setup.

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

-regards

mustang

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Lighting Contactors #89867 10/21/04 08:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
iwire Offline
Moderator
Keep it simple and install regular switches, single poles, three-ways, four-ways, etc.

You can go crazy with lighting controls only to confuse the occupants.

That said, we often have to meet energy code rules, you may want to make sure that you do not have to comply with some energy codes.

For us this usually means installing wall mount (in place of the single pole switches) occupancy sensors in each small office and ceiling mounted motion sensors for the larger offices, hallways, open areas etc.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Lighting Contactors #89868 10/21/04 08:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
iwire Offline
Moderator
It happens that I am remodeling a 27K sq ft office space and there will be no contactors.

Remember if the lighting is 277 volt you can put a lot on one set of 3 ways.

The job I am on now I can have 80 high hats or 37 - 2'x4' drop ins on a 20 amp circuit (16 amps of load)


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Lighting Contactors #89869 10/21/04 11:14 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
I just started a 30k sq/ft office, and they want a master switch for all of the lighting on the mezzenine level, (Not shown anywhere else.) and they have switches all over the place in every area of an open office area. Talk about confusing! I asked the Arch' breifly about it, (Just so happens it is thier office too!) and they had no clue of what I was talking about. I said, "So the people on the area below the mezzinine want to turn on the lights, they first have to come up here to do that?" The answer was "Well, yeah." I think we'll have to talk about this again later........ There are six ways to enter this 10,00 sq/ft space.... All three ways for multiple circuits at every entrance, and a barley locatable master to drop them all. So yeah the feed, and switch side of the circuit will be almost 400'!

Anyway, to answer your question Mustang, you could do it that way, is it best, it depends.... (On how much control and if they want any other features with it.) I'm thinking of something like this after they all get a chance to wrap thier minds around the idea.

http://www.lutron.com/grafikeye/specs/softswitch128.pdf It has low volt switching to the contactor panel.

In California which have some reaching energy requirements. Like dual switching of office spaces, etc. And all the other crap Bob mentioned, but hey... It keeps us busy! Right Bob?



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 10-22-2004).]


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Lighting Contactors #89870 10/22/04 04:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Offline
Broom Pusher and
Member
e57,

Quote

they want a master switch for all of the lighting on the mezzenine level

Would this be the "Override/Bypass" control for the Automatic / Timed interior lighting shut-off control, per CEC Title 24, Part 6?
(time clock driven control shuts off lights during non-business hours, override is 2 hour auto reset).

If yes, the override switch must be located so the area controlled is in sight, and each Zone to have independent overrides (Zone = 5K Feet&#178 [Linked Image]

The intention would be to allow cleaning personnel to turn on lighting per Zone needed, and to be able to override (find the switch and activate it) at the access point(s) of the controlled Zone.

These items are covered and described in the Non Residential Manual of the California Energy Commission's Conservations Standards - AKA "Title 24, Part 6".
The linked file above is kind of large - as it includes Compliance targets for "Envelope" & HVAC, Tables and examples, descriptions and examples, blank compliance forms, as well as the "Lighting" Compliance targets we as Electricians deal with.
The file is a .PDF, so need Acrobat Reader (at least), to view.

The linked file is used by the Lighting System Design Person (EE, Designing Person, EC, or Architect) for minimum Compliance goals, and is what the Lighting Plan will reflect as far as maximum lighting power, room controls, bi-level ("A/B") switching, Building Automatic "Off" controls, and controls for Exterior Lighting.
Use it quite often for the projects I design.

BTW, I would encourage anyone involved with Commercial Projects in California to read the Standards Manual, as it will answer the questions of "Why are there so many strange Lighting Controls on this Plan" and similar ones regarding Lighting Control techniques ("A/B" switching is a common one!).

Quote

they have switches all over the place in every area of an open office area. Talk about confusing! I asked the Arch' breifly about it, (Just so happens it is thier office too!) and they had no clue of what I was talking about.

Funny thing about when you asked the Tenant this - and the Tenant being an Architectural Firm, is they rarely deal with the Lighting System Designs, and therefore are usually unaware of the overall design scenario you were referring to.

They - of course - design the Lighting Fixture Layout, and then Contract an EE Firm for Electrical Systems Design.

The Electrical Engineering Firm will "attemp"t to make the design work, along with design the required controls, perform the calculations and attach the required data/sheets to the Planset.

As to the EE's "attempt" to make the designed lighting layout work, normally the Architects will have more Fixtures designed in than are allowed per Watts/ Ft² Calculations (basic General Office Space = 1.2 Watts / Ft²... but there's ways to adjust and tweak), so the EE "Attempts" to make things work via controls, adjustments and credits.
This is one reason why the RCP has a different Fixture count than the Lighting Plan of the "E" Sheets.

Lastly, the reasoning behind having a Gazillion lighting switches everywhere is to allow for manual lighting power reduction.
This is covered in the Standards Manual.

Scott35

edited to fix an accidental smilee!


[This message has been edited by Scott35 (edited 10-22-2004).]


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Lighting Contactors #89871 10/22/04 04:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Scott35 Offline
Broom Pusher and
Member
Just a note to the first part above, I am unable to get the smilee edited out in the description of Zone size.

The text shown as:
(Zone = 5K Feet² [Linked Image]

Should be:
( Zone = 5K Feet² )

***or read as: Zone = 5000 Square Feet

Scott35


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Lighting Contactors #89872 10/22/04 03:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
iwire Offline
Moderator
Mark I live in MA not CA but we have some energy codes here although not as extensive as you and Scott have to deal with.

Mustang how is the egress lighting being handled in your job?

Generator, battery units?

If you have some generator powered lighting be careful how you control them.

Any emergency egress lights that you choose to switch must automatically go back on during a power failure.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Re: Lighting Contactors #89873 10/22/04 07:39 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
Hey Bob you noticed I changed that? (Where you're at.) I often get your location mixed up, for some reason think you are Cali, you are however in the state I grew up in. And do have to deal with some of the same issues I assume.

Anyway Scott, thanks for that link to Title 24 guidelines, {b]super resource there![/b] Not wanting to totally thread-jack, but the plans I was given on day one (3 days ago) were the same ones the EE was handed in the same meeting. And when we mentioned Title 24, all we got was a blank stare. Bi-level switching got a blank one too. If done by that set, it would be a single over-ride for three floors, from an obcsure hall location in the least trafficed area. No time clocks, no resets. The EE and Arch' should have a revision set monday, I hope, they want rock in three weeks! Yes, I do jump through rings of fire! The boxing is almost done, man my crew kicks but!

Anyway Mustang I really hope you don't have anything as draconian as California Title 24! It is a Design/Build nightmare.


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Re: Lighting Contactors #89874 10/25/04 03:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
M
mustangelectric Offline OP
Member
Thanks for the replies.

Egress lighting for this job is done with battery backup and emergency ballast. There are no energy codes in effect where this project is located.

The CEC looks like it is a bear to work with..anywork we do in CA we send to another firm in CA to handle..

thanks again for the interesting replies.

-regards

mustang


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