ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat Box
Recent Posts
Happy Thanksgiving
by gfretwell - 11/24/20 05:44 PM
What does your work place look like?
by HotLine1 - 11/23/20 03:35 PM
Where is Everyone?
by Lostazhell - 11/21/20 04:17 AM
Ground fault remover :-)
by dsk - 11/21/20 02:47 AM
Work Gloves?
by gfretwell - 11/20/20 10:17 PM
New in the Gallery:
Facebook follies, bad wiring
FPE in Germany pt.2
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 16 guests, and 17 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88299 05/27/04 04:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Joe Tedesco Offline OP
Member
Floor Action at the 2005 NEC adoption in SLC concerning AFCI's to call for their installation for all dwelling living spaces!

I had to leave before the floor action to define "Living Spaces" .... should be interesting when the final results are completed..

PS: The Report of Panels is supposed to be available on the www.necdirect.org sire for downloading in PDF, but have not found it yet. May be put up soon?


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88300 05/27/04 06:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 139
B
BPHgravity Offline
Member
Oh Boy! I can't imagine the controversy that would create.

I wonder if they settled on a definition for "kitchen"?


Bryan P. Holland, ECO.
Secretary - IAEI Florida Chapter
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88301 05/27/04 06:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,374
R
Ryan_J Offline
Moderator
Quote
I wonder if they settled on a definition for "kitchen"?

Man I sure hope so. That has been a real drag the last two years trying to figure out what a kitchen is versus a "break room" or "serving area"!

BTW: Bryan, didn't you propose something like this for AFCI's? Is this your proposal Joe is talking about?


Ryan Jackson,
Salt Lake City
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88302 05/27/04 07:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Joe Tedesco Offline OP
Member
210.8(B)3

ROP 2-85
ROC 2-58

(3) Commercial and Institutional Kitchens. For the purpose of this section kitchen is an area with a sink, food and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.

The AFCI Proposal or Comment? was by Walter Smittle from the National Association of State Fire Marshals.

CharlieE was still there before I left so he may be able to help with the living space definition?


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88303 05/27/04 07:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 139
B
BPHgravity Offline
Member
Quote
Is this your proposal Joe is talking about?

I sure hope not, I get blammed for enough! I feel now that my proposal was a little pre-mature and without much merit. I guess you could say that I like the idea of expanded AFCI use "in principle".

I am also interested in the issue of GFCI protection for receptacles near sink basins in laundry rooms. My proposal (2-49 Log #295) on this was rejected by all but one member. I now hear the requirement is indeed apart of the new code?


Bryan P. Holland, ECO.
Secretary - IAEI Florida Chapter
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88304 05/27/04 08:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 46
A
andyp95 Offline
Member
AFCI's in all living spaces has been in effect in VT since 2002.There is no definition in the VT ammend. for "living space" but Generally AHJ's are requiring Living rooms ,dining rooms ,bedrooms (of course per NEC).But not bathrooms or kitchens. Why not?? I don't know.

edit: it was 2001 a year before the Nec code went into effect.

[This message has been edited by andyp95 (edited 05-27-2004).]

Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88305 05/28/04 11:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Joe Tedesco Offline OP
Member
This was the original Proposal:

[Linked Image from joetedesco.com]


A comment was sent to:Accept Comment 2-91 and it was so that means that the original proposal has been accepted at least until after the final meeting by the NFPA Standards Council.


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88306 05/29/04 08:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 201
CharlieE Offline
Member
________________________________________________________________
2-87a Log #CC200 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept
(210.12)
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Code-Making Panel 2
Comment on Proposal No: 2-134a
Recommendation: Revise 210.12 to read:
“210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
(A) Definition. An arc-fault circuit interrupter is a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected.

(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All 120 volt, single phase, 15 and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit. Branch/Feeder AFCIs shall be permitted to be used to meet the requirements of 210.12(B) until January 1, 2008.

FPN: For information on types of arc-fault circuit interrupters, see UL 1699-1999, Standard for Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters.

Exception: The location of the arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be permitted to be at other than the origination of the branch circuit in compliance with (1) and (2):

(1) The arc-fault circuit interrupter installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the branch circuit overcurrent device as measured along the branch circuit conductors.

(2) The circuit conductors between the branch circuit overcurrent device and the arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a metal raceway or a cable with a metallic sheath.”

Substantiation: The panel recognizes the level of safety provided by AFCIs; however, since the combination type technology is relatively new, a transition period has been established for the industry to meet this requirement.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10 Negative: 3
===============================================
This issue was sent back to the panel (see my next post). However, the panel will act on it again, then it goes to the TCC, then to the Standards Council if it is appealed. The new NFPA president pushed this issue in an attempt to sway the vote. When it gets to the panel, this will probably not make it. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by CharlieE (edited 05-29-2004).]


Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88307 05/29/04 08:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 201
CharlieE Offline
Member
________________________________________________________________
2-91 Log #510 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.12(B))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Walter Smittle, National Association State Fire Marshals
Comment on Proposal No: 2-140

Recommendation: Revise to read as follows:
Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-amperes receptacles outlets installed in dwelling-unit bedrooms all living areas shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter(s).

Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 9 Negative: 4
====================================
This comment was accepted on the floor and sent back to the CMP. IMO, the panel will again reject it and send it to the TCC as reject and the one I just posted will stand. This will be interesting to see how it comes out.


Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy
Re: AFCI's required for all Living Spaces? #88308 05/29/04 10:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
R
resqcapt19 Offline
Member
The proposal accepted on the floor does not require the use of "combination type" AFCIs. The current rule and the the rule accepted on the floor permit the use of branch cirucit and feeder types of AFCIs(the only type currently available). This type of AFCI provides only limited protection beyond the outlet. The rule accepted by CMP 2 requires the use of the much more effective combination type AFCIs after 1/1/08. Note the the proposal only requires AFCI protection for receptacle outlets. Also note that the section heading still reads "Dwelling Unit Bedrooms". Can the scope of the section be expanded by putting the words "all living areas" with in the section?
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Featured:

2020 National Electrical Code
2020 National Electrical
Code (NEC)

* * * * * * *

2020 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2020 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
The_Lightman
The_Lightman
Orlando, Fl, USA
Posts: 49
Joined: August 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Trumpy 9
Popular Topics(Views)
271,924 Are you busy
205,799 Re: Forum
193,890 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3