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Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83955 03/07/03 10:01 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
R
Roger Offline
Member
I must be nuts to get in here, but I must also ask, where is the GEC prohibited from being green. I agree it is not mandated to be green.

I've got to go with Don on this, and for anyone that may think I'm just taking Don's side, you would have to know our history of not agreeing.

Roger

2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83956 03/08/03 12:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
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resqcapt19 Offline
Member
Joe,
Quote
Section 310.12(C) has nothing to do with the GEC!
So what you are telling me is that the grounding electrode conductor is not a grounding conductor!!!!
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83957 03/08/03 06:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Quote
310.12(C) Ungrounded Conductors.

Conductors that are intended for use as ungrounded conductors, whether used as a single conductor or in multiconductor cables, shall be finished to be clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors.

Distinguishing markings shall not conflict in any manner with the surface markings required by 310.11(B)(1).

Exception: Conductor identification shall be permitted in accordance with 200.7.

Where do you see the GEC color identification included here?

What is your understanding of an ungrounded conductor?

[Linked Image]

This figure is from the NECH www.nfpa.org and cleary shows where the GEC is bare!

No color is assigned to the GEC in any of the figures throughout the NECH, so why is there so much confusion here?

Green is the color used the identify the EGC!!



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-08-2003).]


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83958 03/08/03 10:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 197
G
Gwz Offline
Member
No color ID needed for a covered or insulated GEC.

See 1992 TCR, page 176, Log # 703, Proposal 5-206.

[This message has been edited by Gwz (edited 03-08-2003).]

Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83959 03/08/03 02:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
R
resqcapt19 Offline
Member
Joe,
Ok, it doesn't exactly say that the GEC must be green, but it does say that whatever color that you use for the grounding electrode conductor cannot be used as an ungrounded conductor in that facility.
Quote
... shall be finished to be clearly distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors
The grounding electrode conductor is a grounding conductor, or do you dispute this fact, too?
If you use black for the grounding electrode conductor you can't use black for any hot conductor within that same facility because to do so would violate 310.12(C). The easiest way to comply with 310.12(C) is to make the GEC green. There is no wording that restricts the use of green for EGCs only. The code rule in 250.119 just says that the EGC must be green if insulated, it doesn't say that other conductors can't be green. This section doesn't even say that hot conductors can't be green. The prohibition of the use of green for ungrounded conductors is found in 310.12(C). The rule in 310.12(C) is the only restriction on the use of the color green. This section does not prevent the use of green for the GEC. If the code intended that green be reserved for equipment grounding conductors exclusively, then why isn't 250.119 written using similar language to that in 200.7 where the use of white and gray is restricted to grounded conductors only?
Quote
This figure is from the NECH www.nfpa.org and clearly shows where the GEC must be bare!
So now the rules in the handbook over ride those in the code book!!!. 250.62 clearly permits the grounding electrode conductor to be "covered, insulated or bare".
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 03-08-2003).]


Don(resqcapt19)
Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83960 03/08/03 03:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member
Don:

The 2002, and earlier NECH commentary, and the images are always reviewed by the CMP Chairmen, and by the NEC Technical Committee Chairman, and they too agree with me, because if they agreed with you, we would see the GEC as a GREEN Conductor in some the NECH diagrams and images!

When we see the ROP, if and I think there was, the proposal or proposals asking to use a color.

I don't know what the actions were, so we will have to wait for the report.

You can continue to tell your students to make it GREEN if they want, or black or bare!

I still disagree with you, but I do stand ready to admit defeat if and when the time comes!

Will you as well??



[This message has been edited by Joe Tedesco (edited 03-08-2003).]


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83961 03/08/03 04:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
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resqcapt19 Offline
Member
Joe,
My comment about the information in the handbook is only a response to the statement in your post of 6:29 AM on March 8. The statement you made said, "This figure is from the NECH www.nfpa.org and cleary shows where the GEC must be bare! This is not a correct statement. The code permits the GEC to be "bare, covered, or insulated" in 250.62. If this statement is in the handbook, then the handbook is wrong, no matter who reviewed it.

If the a panel acts on a proposal for the GEC color, I will abide by their action. However, after reviewing the proposal, I don't think there will be any panel action on the proposal for 310.12 (6-18) to require a green GEC as the color of the GEC is not within the scope of Panel 6. This was pointed out by the Technical Correlating Committee in the '96 code cycle. Panel 6 had accepted a proposal for the 96 code (proposal 6-32) at both the proposal and comment stage, to require a green GEC, but this proposal was reported as "rejected" because the TCC said panel 6 did not have jurisdiction. I didn't see a proposal submitted to Panel 5 for the GEC color, but I might have missed it. If there is a proposal for Panel 5, we will get an official panel statement.

For the time being, we will just have to "agree to disagree" on the GEC color.

Don


Don(resqcapt19)
Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83962 03/08/03 04:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,389
S
sparky Offline
Member
Ashame those powerpoint people led you astray Joe.
I guess one gets what one pays for
[Linked Image]

Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83963 03/08/03 05:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 175
E
electric-ed Offline
Member
I know it doesn't affect this discussion, but just as a matter of interest, the Canadian Electrical Code requires all system grounding, equipment bonding, and grounding electrode conductors to be colored or identified green, when insulated.

Ed

Re: Color Code for GEC in a Main Service Panel #83964 03/08/03 06:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 197
G
Gwz Offline
Member
Per the 310.12, as previously noted above,

it appears that the NEC should mandate a color for a covered or insulated GEC.

310.12(A) Grounded Conductor ID, (200.6).
eliminates White or Gray.

310.12(B) Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) ID (250.119).

310.12(C) Ungrounded Conductor(s) ID (last 12 words of 1st sentence).

This Section does not leave many common colors to be used for the coverd or insulated GEC.

I certainly do not know why Green should not be used. The GEC is for grounding.

If some other color than Green were to be used for a premise GEC, then a Sign would need to be prominate on eacb panelboard through-out the premise to abide by 210.4(D) to include the GEC color is not to be used as an ungrounded conductor.

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