ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Electrical Inspectors

Thank you for the input. Is there anyone that disagrees and thinks this could harm the work of licensed electricians that perform code compliant and craftsmanlike work?

See Topher, you nearly started WW 3 between those to guys from Mass.

But to answer your question, the answer is NO!

I being held to many different Local AHJ Inspectors get not no less an inspection than I would if it were some State beurocrat, I get my beurocracy right here at home, from a guy right down the street.....


Guys I'm kidding!

SF used to be the hardest place in the Bay Area. Back then you wish they did have State inspectors. People would refuse to work here because we actually enforced codes, although we published our own book, but thats a different story.........

Not WW III

I think local inspectors are just fine.

I've always found conflicts of opinion to form clarity, (I hope). I would be interested to hear from IWIRE regarding the NEC's definition of AHJ in 80.2

charlie

[This message has been edited by cpal (edited 08-16-2004).]

I work in new jersey, as far as i have ever seen its always township insp.

Gentlemen:
NJ does have "State" inspectors. There responsibilities are State owned properties. Like NJ Transit Stations (Structures, not the trains/buses, and like the Service Areas on the toll roads. (ie: Mc D on the PKY, etc)

Also, DOT has jurisdiction on roadway projects that are State funded. As to Plan Review, most hospitals, public buildings, and all the school construction projects are State reviewed.

Our 'AHJ" is usually the Electrical Sub-Code Official that is appointed/hired by the municipality, or a 3rd party (BIU-Garden State, etc) agency that has a contract with the municipality.

It's a tough situation when an EC gets a small job at a 'service area' and the muni office does not know it's State jurisdiction. The EC gets a Permit from the muni, and finds out he is technically "working without a valid permit", as a State permit was not applied for, nor approved.

All State permits originate in the Trenton area, Hamilton Twp, I believe.

John

The term "AHJ" includes all of the overlapping jurisdictions we have to deal with. There are many AHJs in many cases. The traffic cop has his authority, as does the dog catcher. They are both AHJs with differing areas of concern.

The fire marshal is an AHJ that overlaps the building inspector, who is also an AHJ. Many jobs will have even more AHJs to satisfy. (And we have to appease all of them)

Think of: the historical society, the department of public health, the streets department, the tax assessor, the DEP, the list could be endless. All of these are AHJs.

To speak of an ultimate AHJ is ridiculous. The supreme court? Maybe....God? More than likely.

The NEC defines the AHJ thusly:

Way back in 1980, my area had a State Inspector who thought the world revolved around him. There were a few local contractors who even ran him off their worksite, he was such an a**hole! So much so that the local contractors and electrical utilities got together an requested, from the state, that our county take over all electrical inspections within this county. After jumping through a bunch of hoops, it was set up to do just that.

Fast forward to 1999. I have been inspecting for the county for 7 years, and was backup inspector for 5 years before that. My main job, however, was electrician for the City. I received only one check, from the City, but did inspections through-out the county. I had built up a good relationship with the local contractors, as well as with the surrounding area's inspectors. This was helped by attending meeting with the other inspectors, so we all called the same game.

However, dollars, being what they are today, drove the City into giving the inspection process back to the state, again, with alot of paperwork, but it was done.

The new State inspector for this area and I had known each other before they took over, and now we still visit. It is a good thing.

In my mind, it really doesn't matter who inspects, as long as they are knowledgeable about the code, and have some personality.

Hi Charlie please feel free to call me Bob.


Charlie we obviously feel differently about this and that is fine.

You feel I am splitting hairs and maybe I am, but let me explain my view more clearly if I can.

I feel that when code sections are written each word or phrase is chosen very carefully and for reasons I may not fully understand.

The NEC uses the term Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) many times and has done so for a long time.

When I look at the Mass Amendments Rule 4, section 90.4 etc. I see that the writers of the Mass amendments did not use the typical AHJ terminology when referring to the local inspector, the words they use are "Authority Enforcing this Code".

I do not believe for a minute that they forgot that the NEC uses the term AHJ, I believe they made a conscience decision not to refer to the local inspector as the AHJ.

It makes no sense to me to call the local inspector the AHJ when the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations can come in and overrule them.

IMO this is why the MEC refers to the local inspector as the "Authority Enforcing this Code" because that is exactly what they do, no more.


2002 MEC

Again I point out that it seems they bent over backward not to use the term AHJ without the additional word enforcement.

Give me a good reason why I should consider the local inspector the AHJ when the Mass code will not?

I have always considered the AHJ to be the agency that can write, amend, interpret the code.

It is no big deal and it is not WW-III , whether I am wrong or right it does not change how you or I do our jobs.

If I upset you I am sorry that was never my intention.

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 08-16-2004).]

Bob
I am not aware of any reason that should require an apology on your part. I appreciate your concern and frankly hope that I did not offend you or any other member regarding this issue (although we apparently provided some entertainment). I feel such opposing views are healthy and in my case, usually provide a valuable degree of clarity regarding different sections of the MEC and NEC. As a friend of mine preaches it’s all about intent vs. language.

I do not know what the original reference in the MEC was getting at when they used the term “authority enforcing this Code”(Mass ROP’s are like hens teeth). But when I look at section 90.4 it states the “authority enforcing this Code and exercising legal jurisdiction”, and the following sentence states that the “authority having jurisdiction and enforcing”??

I admit my original response may have been a bit passionate but I was not upset. I do not see a point of demarcation regarding the intent of the NEC’s AHJ and the authority of Mass. Municipal Inspectors as provided in CMR 12 or Chapter 166. Section 32 over their area.

In locals other than ours if there were a dispute regarding the language of the NEC Official interpretations are only rendered through a petition to the chair of the Code Making Panel, I do not see a discernable difference between that process and the interpretations process in MA. We additional have an appeals process and an opportunity to petition the Supreme Court.

If you look at Article 80.2 definitions (yes I know MA does not adopt it) the job description of AHJ is not much different than Authority Enforcing, (I will attempt to gain a more informed information).

Your opinion is valid and I’m sure that you will continue to defend it, as you should! I hope that I will be able to do the same.

Thanks
Charlie

Thanks Charlie I was just concerned I came across a bit to passionate myself.

I got an email from a friend suggesting the true AHJ in MA is the Attorney Generals office, that could make sense but I have nothing to back that up.

Anyway good talking with you.

Thanks, Bob