Nobody has an opinion of what happens when switching from state to county electrical inspectors?

Topher... Sometimes nobody answers some of my posts for weeks or at all.... Don't let it get you down.

As for switching from state to more local, I figure thats a good thing, if it were the other way, say local to state, then there would be some definate opinion on it!

Topher,

We have local Inspectors here from private companies that are specifically recognized by each individual Township. It would be hard for me to speculate on other situations.

Bill

I am in a similar position as Bills.

We have inspectors for each city and town!

I have never worked under different conditions then that.

The only State inspectors for me are licensing investigator's.

Bob

I would consider local inspectors to provide a closer relationship with the consumer; this is not to question the professionalism of State or County Inspectors (the job is tough enough as it stands). In my state local inspectors are mostly appointed by the selectmen or town or city officials depending on the type of government some are civil service such as in the larger cities. Over-sight is through our Board of Examiners. Where each municipality has a local inspector I would expect the AHJ can respond in a timely manner to site inspections, they are also available to the local Fire Chiefs during fires (public safety). Additionally as a local inspector you have an opportunity to develop a professional relationship with local contractors, this is a double-edged sword and in many circumstances requires a degree of tact you get to know the inspectors and they get to know you. . The down side of the local inspectors may be more inspectors. By that I refer to inconsistencies when formulating interpretations, no one wishes to be wrong and egos’ can muddy the water. Following several strings on this site illustrates how difficult it is to develop a consensus (I think everyone here who contributes is reasonably civil), Attend an Inspectors meeting (if you don’t already). They do not always agree with what the Code or State Regulations mean. That being said I know many local municipal inspectors personally and they all do a good job.

cpal that is something I have learned here also.

The same book is enforced differently across the country.

Here in MA the town or city inspector is appointed by the local govt. They are not the AHJ.

The AHJ is the state Fire Marshall, all official interpretations have to come from that office.

You are right each inspector has their own ideas of what is important. And while it can be frustrating at times most of these inspectors are only concerned with safety, very few I have met would I consider bad inspectors.

Bob

IWire

Thanks but I disagree with your statement that local inspectors in MA are not the AHJ. Section 3L of chapter 143 General Law’s states that the Board of Fire prevention Regulations shall make and promulgate, and from time to time may alter, amend and repeal etc.
Section 3P provides a means for Appeals but as you know it is not the BFP that handles appeals it is the State Board of examiners and such appeals so granted or denied, are applicable to that one and only case.
Also as you stated the Board of Fire Prevention is responsible for interpretations, such a request must be in the form of a yes/no question and often the response is in kind.

Chapter 166 of the General Laws of the State of Massachusetts Section 32 requires each city of town by ordnance to establish a position known as Inspector of Wires. This section further states that each inspector shall supervise every wire over or under streets or buildings as well as every wire with in or supplied from buildings or structures.

That is partially why notification of installation of wires must be made to each municipal inspector prior to or within five days of commencement of such work for all conductors installed to provide power, lighting, fire protection, security, communication circuits, etc. (with out quoting chapter 141 section 1A)

Municipal Inspectors in each city or town take a solemn oath to enforce the laws and regulations of the commonwealth, and are tasked with the responsibilities laid out in Ch 166 .32, such inspectors are tasked with notifying installers as to the outcome of all inspections (pass / fail), and they must indicate in writing what laws and regulations are violated in such instances that an installation is found to be non-code compliant.

Also 90.4 Enforcement. States
This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, this section further tasks Massachusetts municipal inspectors with the ability to grant special permission, (the authority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety). All of these enforcement requirements are on the shoulders of the local inspectors in Mass. And in fact those inspectors make interpretations every day and they stick unless the appeals process or the interpretation process in initiated (by either the inspector or the contractor)

Yes the State Fire Marshal’s Board of Fire Prevention Adopts the NEC as amended in 527CMR 12:00. But I disagree that municipal inspectors are not the AHJ in local matters of Code enforcement.

My apologies to rest of the forum

I do not see anything in that post that changes my opinion.

The state can overrule the local inspector.


Inspector of wires not AHJ of wires.

I could be wrong (no kidding ) but as long as the inspectors are subservient to the state I do not see how the local inspector is "The Authority Having Jurisdiction"

The closest reference to the local inspector being an authority in the MEC is "authority enforcing the Code"

It seems they took pains not to call the local inspector the AHJ

Could be just a difference of semantics.

Bob

Yes I agree you would seem to be splitting hairs

charlie

LOL

Me and the MEC.

Bob

Thank you for the input. Is there anyone that disagrees and thinks this could harm the work of licensed electricians that perform code compliant and craftsmanlike work?

See Topher, you nearly started WW 3 between those to guys from Mass.

But to answer your question, the answer is NO!

I being held to many different Local AHJ Inspectors get not no less an inspection than I would if it were some State beurocrat, I get my beurocracy right here at home, from a guy right down the street.....


Guys I'm kidding!

SF used to be the hardest place in the Bay Area. Back then you wish they did have State inspectors. People would refuse to work here because we actually enforced codes, although we published our own book, but thats a different story.........

Not WW III

I think local inspectors are just fine.

I've always found conflicts of opinion to form clarity, (I hope). I would be interested to hear from IWIRE regarding the NEC's definition of AHJ in 80.2

charlie

[This message has been edited by cpal (edited 08-16-2004).]

I work in new jersey, as far as i have ever seen its always township insp.

Gentlemen:
NJ does have "State" inspectors. There responsibilities are State owned properties. Like NJ Transit Stations (Structures, not the trains/buses, and like the Service Areas on the toll roads. (ie: Mc D on the PKY, etc)

Also, DOT has jurisdiction on roadway projects that are State funded. As to Plan Review, most hospitals, public buildings, and all the school construction projects are State reviewed.

Our 'AHJ" is usually the Electrical Sub-Code Official that is appointed/hired by the municipality, or a 3rd party (BIU-Garden State, etc) agency that has a contract with the municipality.

It's a tough situation when an EC gets a small job at a 'service area' and the muni office does not know it's State jurisdiction. The EC gets a Permit from the muni, and finds out he is technically "working without a valid permit", as a State permit was not applied for, nor approved.

All State permits originate in the Trenton area, Hamilton Twp, I believe.

John

The term "AHJ" includes all of the overlapping jurisdictions we have to deal with. There are many AHJs in many cases. The traffic cop has his authority, as does the dog catcher. They are both AHJs with differing areas of concern.

The fire marshal is an AHJ that overlaps the building inspector, who is also an AHJ. Many jobs will have even more AHJs to satisfy. (And we have to appease all of them)

Think of: the historical society, the department of public health, the streets department, the tax assessor, the DEP, the list could be endless. All of these are AHJs.

To speak of an ultimate AHJ is ridiculous. The supreme court? Maybe....God? More than likely.

The NEC defines the AHJ thusly:

Way back in 1980, my area had a State Inspector who thought the world revolved around him. There were a few local contractors who even ran him off their worksite, he was such an a**hole! So much so that the local contractors and electrical utilities got together an requested, from the state, that our county take over all electrical inspections within this county. After jumping through a bunch of hoops, it was set up to do just that.

Fast forward to 1999. I have been inspecting for the county for 7 years, and was backup inspector for 5 years before that. My main job, however, was electrician for the City. I received only one check, from the City, but did inspections through-out the county. I had built up a good relationship with the local contractors, as well as with the surrounding area's inspectors. This was helped by attending meeting with the other inspectors, so we all called the same game.

However, dollars, being what they are today, drove the City into giving the inspection process back to the state, again, with alot of paperwork, but it was done.

The new State inspector for this area and I had known each other before they took over, and now we still visit. It is a good thing.

In my mind, it really doesn't matter who inspects, as long as they are knowledgeable about the code, and have some personality.

Hi Charlie please feel free to call me Bob.


Charlie we obviously feel differently about this and that is fine.

You feel I am splitting hairs and maybe I am, but let me explain my view more clearly if I can.

I feel that when code sections are written each word or phrase is chosen very carefully and for reasons I may not fully understand.

The NEC uses the term Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) many times and has done so for a long time.

When I look at the Mass Amendments Rule 4, section 90.4 etc. I see that the writers of the Mass amendments did not use the typical AHJ terminology when referring to the local inspector, the words they use are "Authority Enforcing this Code".

I do not believe for a minute that they forgot that the NEC uses the term AHJ, I believe they made a conscience decision not to refer to the local inspector as the AHJ.

It makes no sense to me to call the local inspector the AHJ when the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations can come in and overrule them.

IMO this is why the MEC refers to the local inspector as the "Authority Enforcing this Code" because that is exactly what they do, no more.


2002 MEC

Again I point out that it seems they bent over backward not to use the term AHJ without the additional word enforcement.

Give me a good reason why I should consider the local inspector the AHJ when the Mass code will not?

I have always considered the AHJ to be the agency that can write, amend, interpret the code.

It is no big deal and it is not WW-III , whether I am wrong or right it does not change how you or I do our jobs.

If I upset you I am sorry that was never my intention.

Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 08-16-2004).]

Bob
I am not aware of any reason that should require an apology on your part. I appreciate your concern and frankly hope that I did not offend you or any other member regarding this issue (although we apparently provided some entertainment). I feel such opposing views are healthy and in my case, usually provide a valuable degree of clarity regarding different sections of the MEC and NEC. As a friend of mine preaches it’s all about intent vs. language.

I do not know what the original reference in the MEC was getting at when they used the term “authority enforcing this Code”(Mass ROP’s are like hens teeth). But when I look at section 90.4 it states the “authority enforcing this Code and exercising legal jurisdiction”, and the following sentence states that the “authority having jurisdiction and enforcing”??

I admit my original response may have been a bit passionate but I was not upset. I do not see a point of demarcation regarding the intent of the NEC’s AHJ and the authority of Mass. Municipal Inspectors as provided in CMR 12 or Chapter 166. Section 32 over their area.

In locals other than ours if there were a dispute regarding the language of the NEC Official interpretations are only rendered through a petition to the chair of the Code Making Panel, I do not see a discernable difference between that process and the interpretations process in MA. We additional have an appeals process and an opportunity to petition the Supreme Court.

If you look at Article 80.2 definitions (yes I know MA does not adopt it) the job description of AHJ is not much different than Authority Enforcing, (I will attempt to gain a more informed information).

Your opinion is valid and I’m sure that you will continue to defend it, as you should! I hope that I will be able to do the same.

Thanks
Charlie

Thanks Charlie I was just concerned I came across a bit to passionate myself.

I got an email from a friend suggesting the true AHJ in MA is the Attorney Generals office, that could make sense but I have nothing to back that up.

Anyway good talking with you.

Thanks, Bob

You guys are missing the point. There are many AHJs out there. Not just one for each job. We have to satisfy ALL of them. One doesn't over-rule another unless the first works directly for the second (the building official is the boss of assistant BOs and inspectors). The fire marshal does not usually work for the BO, nor vice-versa. Federal inspectors have their own rules, too.

You could satisfy the building code AHJ, but still run afoul of another AHJ in the area of federal ADAAG or health code or historical district, or zoning, or ???

Bob are you telling me I have to call the attorney general for inspections now?

LOL

Scott, I doubt you would take any BS from that office either.

Bob

John,

Just for the record, the transit sites, like train stations and Federal sites like the post office fall under the Federal Goverment. The state or the municiple goverment is not allowed to inspect these buildings at all. The state will also cover areas that do not want their own inspectors. For example a town is small or rural and they have no need for a part time inspector, then the state will do the inspections for them. E-mail me when you get the chance,please. I have a question for you about the NJ rehab code.