ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area California 3-way

Years ago we would wire 3-ways using two conductor cable only and you would end up with a hot and neut in both 3-ways. One two wire from each 3-way to the light and one two wire between the three ways. This was called a "California" System. However I don't remember the connections. Can anyone provide a diagram or tell me where I can find one. Thanks

You may also hear this called a 'French three way', 'Carter three way' or an 'illegal three way'. By whichever name you use, it is illegal and dangerous. The system switches the neutral, which is a clear violation of the NEC. Additionally, on one of the 'off' positions the lamp is still 'hot', with both the screw shell and the center pin 'hot' so that there is no voltage between them.

They way that it works is that you use the three way switches _fed_ from the traveller terminals, with the common terminal connected to the lamp. If one three way is switched so that its common is connected to hot, and the other three way is switched so that its common is connected to neutral, then you complete the circuit and the lamp lights. If both switches present neutral to the lamp, then the lamp is off and everything is safe. If both switches present hot to the lamp, then the lamp is off, but everything is energized to line voltage.

Take a look at http://www.geocities.com/gary_wachs/ElectriPuzzles.html for some interesting three way circuits.

-Jon

Also called the "Chicago 3-way too". Whatever you call it its illegal and dangerous.

I tried to post a sketch as a photo but can't figure out how to do that although I have seen it done on other posts...hhmmm.
OK here's the wiring and the neutral is not switched. Took a while to figure this out.
There is a two conductor from each switch to the light and a two wire between the two three ways. The black in the two wire between the switches carries the hot through and ties to a traveller post on each switch. The white in the same wire ties to the common on each switch. The white from each two wire carries the neutral through and both tie to the light.
The black in the same wires both tie to the light and to the other traveler on each three way. Feed this set-up on either end and you end up with a hot and neut on the other end. If this goofy set up doesn't meet code why? Appologies in advance if this has been discussed before.

Thanks, Kent.

Your description answered a question I've had about this scheme since I first heard of it way back. I never could quite visualize it. What I had missed is that the neutral goes off through the light while the hot heads toward the other 3-way. Bringing the neutral to the far 3-way, thus enabling the continuing of the branch circuit is a nice touch.

The polarity at the lampholder is always correct.

The downside, for me is the unbalanced magnetic field created in some switch settings, or when the branch is continued and downstream load is connected. But that is a health issue (and debated, at that), not a NEC issue.

Bottom line, what you described is NEC compliant, IMO.

This is my idea of what you described, KentVW:




ElectricAL

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 03-10-2004).]

the circuit #3 is known as the "american alternating circuit" here. it's prohibited because the fixture can be hot when the light is off...

ElectricAL points out the problem with this circuit. Depending upon switch setting or downstream load, your current flows in a large loop, going (in the diagram) from 'switch left' to 'switch right', then 'up' to the lamp, then down to 'switch left'. I believe that this violates 300.3(B), because all the conductors for the circuit are not present in the same cable.

-Jon

:andy,

In this case the conductor that's always in contact with the fixture is the grounded one. There is a another 3-way arrangement that you are probably thinking of.

Bill

(psst; nice picture Al -- )

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-10-2004).]

I do some work for a builder who also sell mod. homes.The factory wires the fixtures 'hot'at top of basement stairs and bottom of attic stairs,with 3-wire to switch,and 3-wire drops for site installed 3-way.I've been changing them to 'hot at switch' but that's a pain,and time eater;I'd love to site code section to builder to feed-back to modular mfr. to end this.What is it ?

Jon,

I think 300.3(B)(3) provides the exception that results in the setup in the diagram that I drew to be NEC compliant. The common installation would be in a dwelling wired with NM-B.

Al

OT, but relevant. An old timer at the supply house gave me something to think about one day. He said they used to wire a 3 way switch and a constant hot outlet in a detached garage with only one 14/3 going to the house. He said they didn't use the ground for a neutral. I've thought about it and can't come up with a way to make it work. Does anybody have any ideas? Is it possibly related to this 3 way?

Hey! Whadda ya mean "California" 3 way! ...S

Electric Eagle,

Take a look at the #3 diagram in the link that Winnie (Jon) provides in his first post. The problem is that the lampholder polarity will flip, depending on the switch positions, but one can use a 14/3, only, and make the light "work" and get a constant hot and neutral for the garage outlet.

Al

[This message has been edited by ElectricAL (edited 03-10-2004).]

#3 seems to be the evil california 3-way we originally talked about. Hot and neutral go to the traveler terminals and the commons go to the light.
Andy, I know it under the names Hamburger Wechselschaltung, Sparwechselschaltung or Kreuz-und-Gewitter-Schaltung.
One additional problem is when an old, worn-out switch arcs you have a nice fat short and don't know why.
In Germany that system was once used to feed a grounded receptacle and 3-way switch with only 2w+ground cable. How? Black = hot. grey = Neutral with jumper wire to ground screw at receptacle (once legal) and red wire (actually intended to be the ground wie, but that wasn't ever that strict, according to code red could also be used as a phase) was the fixture wire.
Simple and ugly, and probably outlawed in the 1920ies or 30ies. "Classic grounding" was allowed until 1973.

Ok,...this is all to confusing for me ....With all these different ways to wire a 3-way,did someone lose sleep coming up with this or what?? ...what's wrong with the conventional way we do it?..Our way is so much safer,and easier...in my opinion..and I finally taught my guy how to wire one..
AR

AR,

When I was an apprentice, my Master used to complain about the high cost of 14/3. . .nearly double the cost of 14/2. He'd complain that you only got one more conductor for all that money! I think he'd have loved to cut down on the heap of stock in his truck by just not stocking 14/3. . .but he came down on your side, ultimately: Personally, I like the puzzle aspect of all the possible 3-way combos. I like the understanding that comes when all the pieces fit together and I can see the whole picture.

It seems to me that it is consistantly known by the name of somewhere else:

in NC, it's the Chicago 3-way
in Chicago, it's the Califoria 3-way
in Germany, it's the American 3-way
and Boston even gets the French involved!

Is anyone willing to own up to this crazy way of wiring?