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#32478 12/24/03 08:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2
cunnikm Offline OP
Junior Member
I am looking for consensus standard support for my case for accurate electrical drawings for an industrial facility. I have used NFPA 70B. I have also used the need for Flash Hazard Analysis for the single line requirement. You would think common sense and logic would prevail but I need help. Does anyone have any other good references with some teeth?

#32479 12/24/03 11:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Welcome to our board. However I think some more info might be needed. When you say electrical drawings for a industrial site, Are you an electrical engineer? An Architect? The reasons for my questions come from my state rules. In some cases you might have to be an EE, PE or Architect in order to submit prints for a job in my town. In my state (NJ) there is also a re-hab construction code that we have to follow.


#32480 12/29/03 11:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2
cunnikm Offline OP
Junior Member
I am not talking about new construction. I am refering to existing facility production and maintenance. I am looking for something bigger than state level that might require facilities to maintain accurate prints. I know nuclear facilities require this for their licenses but what about other general industry?

#32481 12/29/03 12:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
These thought come to mind, they may be useful:

215.5 Diagrams of Feeders.

If required by the authority having jurisdiction, a diagram showing feeder details shall be provided prior to the installation of the feeders. Such a diagram shall show the area in square feet of the building or other structure supplied by each feeder, the total computed load before applying demand factors, the demand factors used, the computed load after applying demand factors, and the size and type of conductors to be used.


220.35 Optional Calculations for Determining Existing Loads.

The calculation of a feeder or service load for existing installations shall be permitted to use actual maximum demand to determine the existing load under the following conditions:

(1) The maximum demand data is available for a 1-year period.

Exception: If the maximum demand data for a 1-year period is not available, the calculated load shall be permitted to be based on the maximum demand (measure of average power demand over a 15-minute period) continuously recorded over a minimum 30-day period using a recording ammeter or power meter connected to the highest loaded phase of the feeder or service, based on the initial loading at the start of the recording. The recording shall reflect the maximum demand of the feeder or service by being taken when the building or space is occupied and shall include by measurement or calculation the larger of the heating or cooling equipment load, and other loads that may be periodic in nature due to seasonal or similar conditions.

See the rest in the NEC.

See also the rules for "existing" in the NEC.

Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
#32482 12/29/03 12:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 751
Most state and local codes leave the existing buildings inspections up to the fire marshal. Most FMs require an annual inspection. Check your local FM for his rules. Until there is a disaster, or new construction is started, the BO with his building code cannot touch it.

#32483 12/29/03 03:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,527
Although not the code ‘boilerplate’ many use, except possibly by A&E firms, one reference in their “Division 16” verbiage (and other CSI sections) is the InterNational Electrical Testing Association standard MTS-2001, Maintenance Testing Specifications for Electrical Power Distribution Equipment and Systems, §4.1 The user shall provide the testing organization with the following: 2. The most current set of electrical drawings and instruction manuals applicable to the scope of work relative to the equipment under test.

A large complication of this mandate is that the drawings may have been provided for original construction, but they become dangerously out of date with {often routine} facility changes. Keeping them current represents significant effort and expense and sometimes only grudgingly revised at the insistence of a captive maintenance crew.

Simply, it is extremely spooky having to work on facility medium-voltage systems using outdated drawings.

#32484 12/31/03 02:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,721
Broom Pusher and
This reply is long and word-ee, written semi nerd-ee (hee-hee). Scroll thru to find more relevant areas, or be lost to the
"Curse Of Never-Ending Text" forever!!!
<enter sinister laughs>

Now for something totally different:

What Bjarney has posted relates to this topic really well (IMO, that is!...).

In all the Project Spec. Manuals I read / have read / will read, Division 16's "Boilerplate" wordage includes the required
stuff for Final Commissioning on the Project, and they all contain the same inclusions, prior to turn-over (and final payment).

Wordage includes what Bjarney has listed above - which covers Testing and Balancing (TAB) on Equipment either:

* Provided & Installed by the EC,
* Owner Provided - Contractor Installed,
* Provided & Installed by others-Wiring & Conduit by EC.

Along with TAB, Div. 16's Final Commissioning includes a "Clean And Legible" copy of the As-Built set(s), Documents and
Manuals for Electrical Equipment, and spare parts (typically 1% of installed items, but not less than one) such as Receptacles,
Lamps, Ballasts, and of course - Fuses.

More and more are requesting As-Builts to be in a CAD format, then submitted on Disk Media (Floppy, CD-R, or if you're really
good at hacking, an extremely complex Abacus [Linked Image]...). Some ask for both a Hard Copy and CAD files. Typical specs would be:

* Minimum Hard Copy Media Size: D (arch)
* Media type: Vellum (Translucent Bond sometimes may be an alternate)
* Color Scheme: Red for As-built markups (if multiple system types are As-built, each system gets specific color)
* CAD format: AutoCAD Release 2000 (many still hold this as R14 format, which is good for me!).

There are a few more requirements in Div. 16 for Fin. Comm., which need to be dealt with prior to the EC's obligation being
fulfilled. One seemingly apparent item would be Final Electrical Inspection signoff per the local DBS. Another is completing
items on "Punch Lists", made up by the Architect or Client's Inspection staff.

The GC can successfully "Turn-Over" the project to the Client, when all trades have their Final Commissioning accepted by the
Client / Client's Representatives (Architect and Client's Inspection staff).

A note to add about plans:
In one of the Chapters (I cannot recall the Div. number) - and within the stand alone Final Commissioning Documentation, the EE
is to submit the latest working set of E Sheets in CAD and Hard Copy formats. The same goes for all other Engineers
(Mechanical, Plumbing, Structural, etc.).
Some ask for all sets - from preliminary sets to the last revision set, others ask for the most current revision set.
All ask for copies of other related Construction Documents that involve the Engineer (or supplied to the Contractor by the

Oops, almost forgot to include Client Training! (training and demonstration of control systems, etc.).

To me, this protocol is a good thing. Gives the Client as much relevant data possible, and follows a Logical design structure
format. Doing this in an efficient + effective manner is the goal I am striving for, yet this matter of thinking is not something
that is relevant to every person or project - it's only relevant to those who need it.

The Project Manuals I deal with are for both new Construction Projects (new Structures), and work on Existing Structures
(Remodels, Tenant Improvements, Upgrades, etc.).

Referencing the As-Built items of installed stuff is a very good thing, but is only as good as:

1: The Person(s) Recording The Documentations,
2: The Person(s) Compiling The Documentations,
3: The Person(s) Responsible For The Logistics Of The Documentations,
4: The Person(s) Interpreting The Documentations For Reference,
5: The Person(s) In "Control" Of "What Does/Does Not Get Done".

If one (or more) of these Parties fails to do their task properly, all fail!

As everyone here already knows, I like Documentation! When Final Commissioning time is near, I submit all kinds of data to the
Architect / Client (& / or other Rep's if requested).
As-Builts of all systems we dealt with are compiled to a multi page CAD set, then submitted in both Hard Copy and Disk
Media forms.
Using the current version of the Architect's Building layout as a Base Plan, I keep it "clean" and only attach it to the drawings
as an XREF (External Reference - meaning the base plan is not drawn on, but is visible below the layers of the E drawings).
Sometimes I will use the Architect's title Block (also via XREF), but normally use my own page template + title block, and add
their info to a typical stamp area (logo stamp, not PE stamp).

My Plotter (err... I mean Large Media Format Printer!... actually a very large HP Color Inkjet Printer!) can accept upto D size
Media, so hard copies go out in that size.

Disk copies are now on a single CD-R, where as prior to the influx of recordable CD Media, multiple floppy disks were used -
which data was spanned across them via compression software (PK ZIP).

Submitted many via E-Mail, and a few via website.

For all text Documentation (manuals, etc.), if they are available in an Electronic format, I submit both a hard copy and disk
media version.
Been "Somewhat" successful in compiling hard copies to an Electronic copy, via scanning techniques.
OCR works well... after the App' has been properly tweeked and used a lot!
OCR is not 100% fail-safe! I still find very odd and funny "Translations" on almost every document - the worst being an
Italicized Serif font scanned to Adobe Acrobat.

Even with as much information I can possibly submit (and if all the other trades are submitting their stuff the way I am), there's
nothing preventing all the data to be rendered totally useless when major renovations are performed afterwards. Sometimes
even minor alterations can seriously affect the complete Construction Reference set.

These alterations should be noted properly, and compiled to the Construction Drawings + Data Records Set(s) if one plans to
have accurate As-Built records of a given project.
What detours this protocol is most often $$$! i.e.: "We can save X Dollars by not requesting Construction Documentation from
the GC (from their Subs + Vendors). Besides, who _Really_ needs it anyway!?!?!?"

Admiringly, not every project requires a fully detailed record set from all trades + vendors - nor the Logistics involved with
large records. Some Medium sized projects need only simple documentation.
Small projects may not need any documentation records at all!

What level of record documentation is actually needed - or is effective for notation, should be determined by a knowledgeable
representative, and that person(or persons) should assist wherever possible to keep the projected goals as accurate as
This includes support to the Contractors, Architect and Engineers; and as much as I may get in hot water with fellow persons
in the design & management areas (EEs, PMs, Estimators, Consultants, Document Authors, etc.):

--->Get rid of the "Boilerplate Specs"!<---

I mean actually delete the Template file which contains boilerplate specifications!
Instead, create specifications and requirements which are more accurate to the project they are attached to.
I say this from the In-Field aspect, as viewed by the Installers.
The text of so many specifications shown within plansets (and some project manuals) is, at times, laughable. This results in the
Field Installation Personnel (people actually building the place! [Linked Image]...) becoming less and less likely to read specs.
I have had quite a few experiences where people I am working with, in the field and office, have no idea what the specs want.
Others are unaware the specs exist in the first place!

So to wind this message up finally [Linked Image], it's upto all parties involved with a given project, to compile accurate, usable record
documents. How much detail is to be included will rely on whatever is specified by the Client's Reps, The AHJ, and is very
project specific.
Not that this is an accurate picture for every facility, but it is rather common for the projects I deal with.

Sorry for the excessive rambling, just typing my general thoughts for consideration.

Hopefully, this will be of assistance.


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
#32485 12/31/03 05:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
The text of so many specifications shown within plansets (and some project manuals) is, at times, laughable. This results in the
Field Installation Personnel (people actually building the place! ...) becoming less and less likely to read specs.

That is a very accurate statement, once I start seeing lines in the specs that obviously have nothing to do with the job on the prints my eyes glaze over and I stop reading.

This tells me right off the bat that no one is really specifying the job at hand and it can become a free for all.

I have used these unrelated lines to discredit other relevant parts.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician

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