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#27598 07/23/03 08:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 914
E
Member
I had to do some searching, but I found this about standard Seimens breakers

"Will replace American Switch, Westinghouse Type BR, Bryant, Challenger, Sylvania, Crouse-Hinds, Murray, Frank Adams, General Electric (Full size only), General Switch, I-TE, Gould, Montgomery Ward and Sears. U.L. Listed"


So it looks like Siemens is good for just about any common "knife" style plug on panel except Sq D Homeline.

#27599 07/23/03 08:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
H
Member
I have a piece of paper at work that says that Cutler Hammer (Cut/Ham)breakers TYPE BR (These look like Bryant breakers)are good for Cutler Hammer-Challenger-Bryant-Westinghouse. These companies have all been bought out by Cut/Ham. Siemans (ITE) and Murray have always been by them self. Also Square D and GE have always been by them selfs. Then there is an after market breaker like T&B. These too are "suppose" to be good for all.

#27600 07/23/03 09:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
R
Member
Guys,
Only "OEM" breakers are listed. Breakers that can be used in other panels are "classified".
Here is the information from the UL Guide "DIXF":
Quote
A circuit breaker that is Classified only is marked on the side with the statement:

"Classified for use only in specified panelboards where the available short-circuit current is 10 kA, 120/240 volts ac or less. Do not use in equipment connected to circuits having an available system short-circuit current in excess of 10 kA, 120/240 volts ac. For catalog numbers (or equivalent) of specified panelboards, refer to Publication No.______ provided with this circuit breaker. If additional information is necessary, contact [Classified circuit breaker manufacturer's name]."

A circuit breaker that is both Classified and Listed is marked on the side with the statement:

"This circuit breaker is Listed for use in circuit breaker enclosures and panelboards intended and marked for its use. This circuit breaker is Classified for use, where the available short-circuit current is 10 kA, 120/240 V ac or less, in the compatible panelboards shown in Publication No. ______ provided with this circuit breaker. When used as a Classified circuit breaker, do not use in equipment connected to circuits having an available system short-circuit current in excess of 10 kA, 120/240 V ac. If additional information is necessary, contact [Classified circuit breaker manufacturer's name]."

The referenced publication is a compatibility list which tabulates the company name, catalog number, number of poles and electrical ratings of the Classified circuit breaker, in addition to the company name and catalog number of the applicable UL Listed panelboards, and corresponding UL Listed circuit breakers in place of which the Classified circuit breaker has been investigated. The compatibility list also details the maximum permissible voltage and maximum available short circuit current of the supply system to the panelboard. The Classified circuit breaker is not suitable for the specified application if the system supply characteristics exceed the maximum values indicated in the compatibility list. One copy of the compatibility list is provided with each circuit breaker.

Circuit breakers which are both Classified and Listed have markings as above, with the addition of the Listing Mark, located on the side of the circuit breaker.
Note that the "specific" panel that the classified breaker can be used in must be on a sheet that is to be supplied with the classified breaker. It appears that some more specific information is required to be supplied with the Siemens breakers if they are in compliance with the UL standard.
Don



[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 07-30-2003).]


Don(resqcapt19)
#27601 07/24/03 06:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,291
Member
Don's right.
Just because you can stuff it into the panel doesn't make it right.
For years, GE C/Bs would fit into all the "interchangeable" panels. (But the only one that would fit in a GE was a GE) Very clever on their part, until the copyright wore out.

Read the info that should be posted on your loadcenter...It will tell you which C/Bs you may use.

#27602 07/24/03 08:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 84
D
donles Offline OP
Member
Thanks resqcapt19 for clearing this up. I'm glad that I asked the question and I think that many of us learned something.

Don

#27603 07/30/03 01:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 49
Member
From their site: Why carry up to six other brands of circuit breakers when the industry's most reputable brand, Cutler-Hammer, is all you need?
http://www.cutler-hammer.eaton.com/...es&cid=987090265970&Sec=products

#27604 07/31/03 07:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 26
R
Member
So far, it seems that there is a group of breakers which is classified as being acceptable for use in other manufacturers' panels. I still don't see how that equates to being able to use an appropriately listed and classifed Murray or C-H breaker in, for example, a GE panel.

GE's label on the panel door and instructions for a standard residential grade panel say "use only GE breakers" or something similar.

From the 1999 NEC, section 110-3(b) "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

The GE "instructions ... in the ... labeling" clearly state "use only GE ...".

Why is it not a code violation to use anything other than a GE breaker in a so-labeled GE panel? Taking that argument a step further, is it not true that all any manufacturer has to do is label their panel with "use only our breakers/components" and use of any alternate brand breaker/component becomes a code violation?

This has nothing to do with whether the breakers themselves are listed and/or classified for use in another manufacturers' panel. It's coming at it from the other direction where a manufacturer restricts use of any installed components to their own brand and puts that in a label on the panel.

Am I really misintepreting something here?

Rob

#27605 07/31/03 08:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,498
Likes: 1
C
C-H Offline
Member
Lawmakers hate this type of behaviour where the sole purpose is to reduce competition. At least where I live, technical interfaces are excluded from legal protection. You can protect the design of your new car, but not the ban someone from making wheels that fit it. I don't know if this applies to the US too, but I find it likely.

By the way I think a
Quote
C-H breaker
sounds like something I should stay away from... [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-31-2003).]

#27606 07/31/03 10:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
R
Member
Rob,
Yes, you are missing something. The rule in 110.3(B) only applies to instructions that are a part of the "listing and labeling" process. The instructions on the panel are "manufacturer's instructions and 110.3(B) does not require that you follow them. If 110.3(B) did apply to the manufacturer's instructions, then there would be no code compliant use for "classified" breakers.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
#27607 07/31/03 06:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 84
D
donles Offline OP
Member
rlrct, Rob wrote
------------------------------------------------
Why is it not a code violation to use anything other than a GE breaker in a so-labeled GE panel? Taking that argument a step further, is it not true that all any manufacturer has to do is label their panel with "use only our breakers/components" and use of any alternate brand breaker/component becomes a code violation?
------------------------------------------------

It's like GM saying use only genuine GM parts. If a breaker is listed for use in another mfg.'s panel it was deemed to be compatible by a recognized authority.

Don

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