ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area What would it hurt?

good one Pierre

i would counter that it is the ability to scrutinize all aspects of ones livelyhood objectively

however... in doing so within the NEC we are stonewalled with benchmarks like 42 circuits, 6 disco's, 24" lengths, 30 conductors, etc

sure, someone had to make the call, it's simply easier to swallow when they come with some level of justification.

(btw~ i have long suspected a six fingered NFPA past employee of stature)

do i always drive 55?, no not really , yet i suspect that there are stats supporting the safety of lower speed limitations


[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-05-2003).]

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 07-05-2003).]

I know the majority here have permits and inspections,but from someone who must justify to homeowners and Gc,s daily that what's in "that little book you pull like a knife" as one Gc phrased it,it would be nice to have some human "backup" to justify why we can't "Just do it this way,nobody will ever see it".

However I don't think there's many who can say that they haven't had to fit a fix to the situation.

Russell

I almost always am asked " Is it safe ? " when somebody wants to do an installation other than per the words in the CODE.

I usually refer the questioneer to 90.1(A) and 90.1(B), especially the " This code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety".

Why should a ' justifiable ' decision be required when an installation is not installed per "the code" ?

In the scenario of the original question, when is just 1 or 2 more ( or 4 or 5 ) tandem CB's beyond justifiable?

The Code is not a perfect document, but it one than the electrical industry geneally adopts and allows for everyone to use the same criteria.

Why abuse it ?

Indiana indicates that all electrical installation be installed per the Indiana Electrical Code ( a modified NEC ) whether it is inspected or not.

Seems to me that the "next person will install the tandem breakers if I don't" is asking for a possible future costly reprimand.

Trouble is "Everyone makes mistakes" is just TOO easy to say, - - - me included.

[This message has been edited by Gwz (edited 07-05-2003).]

A coupleof years ago I was called to wire a hot tub at a 3 year old custom home. When I opened the 40 circuit 200A main breaker panel, I discovered 54 circuits via added tandems. This was done at the time of construction. My first thought was what other code rules did the electrician violate on this job. I started at the meter and looked at the whole system and soon found several. The metering was at the pad mount with a 320A meterbase feeding (2) 200A disconnects. One fed this house and one fed a 40'x100' workshop. Neither the house or the workshop had a grounding electrode system, just one ground rod driven at the meterbase/disconnects. The house and workshop were each fed with 4/0 URD triplex, no EGC. There is CATV, telephone and intercom wiring run between this house and workshop as well as metal water piping and copper LP gas line.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is when I see one basic NEC article disregarded, I automatically become suspicious of the rest of the job. This wasn't a must fix situation, this was wrong from the get-go on a $500,000.00 new construction project executed by a long established licensed electrical contractor in a county with no inspection program at the time.

What a professional


Makes you wonder how many times he has said that with structural elements of his buildings.

I am glad I work in an area that we have regular inspection of the trades.

ga.sparky56 It sounds like your always working against the tide in your area, it must be tough not to "fall in line" with the unprofessional.

I also am glad I live in an area with regular inspections, but this one (seemingly) arbitrary rule is one I question. How can we have a 200 amp 20/40 that can take 40 circuits, yet a 40/40 panel that's more than twice the size take the same amount of circuits and not 1 more?

You have to stop somewhere. I recently bid a project to correct a non licensed "electrician's" work. This guy had a 200amp 40 circuit panel as a 100 amp sub panel off another 200 amp panel. Both panel had over 60 circuits in each. Numerous other problems were found.

I was hoping someone knew a real, technical reason for the limit. But it appears the only answer is "because the code says so." I've never liked an answer like that whether in school, or city government, or home ownwers associations, etc. That is why I questioned this rule. I don't like having to give this answer to a homeowner when they ask me why they have to spend $XXX for a sub panel to add one circuit.

Bob,it's not as bad as I make it sound sometimes.

There's several good professional builders and tradesmen of all kinds here,but the lack of code enforcement still seems to be an excuse to "do as you please" for some.

Case in point,I was in the supply house this past Wed. and a Licensed EC came in and asked for 6-3"plain" no ground. The counterman gave him a funny look,and the EC said" I see no reason to run the 4th wire when the neutral and ground is all bonded together on the range" he left for another supplier in search of 6-3 plain.

It's gotten better over the last few years but we still have a long way to go.

I don't think Electric Eagle is in any way suggesting to "just make it work".Adding one tandem breaker is along way from being unsafe imho. I know a bit about the area he works in,and I know it's very competetive there and they probably have tough code enforcement, but there again I just think that the line has to be drawn someplace.

Russell

I copied this interesting history of the 42 circuit requirment from this website:
http://www.tradeslang.com/tradeslang_oldtimer.htm

well then,
if it's good enough for 75 yr old Waldorf Astoria standards.....

Come on up to Canada. No such limit here.