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License to survive #219659
09/27/18 04:53 AM
09/27/18 04:53 AM
S
sparky  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
EC&M August '18 cover story

pg 28 article

written by a Matt Halverson

anyone here read it?

comments?

~S~

Business, Office, Estimating, Legal:
Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219666
09/30/18 04:35 PM
09/30/18 04:35 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,050
Brick, NJ USA
~s~
No, not yet, but if you bring it up, it must be interesting......


John
Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219667
09/30/18 05:24 PM
09/30/18 05:24 PM
S
sparky  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
I found it rather distressing HotOne

~S~

Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219669
09/30/18 05:38 PM
09/30/18 05:38 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,050
Brick, NJ USA
~s~
OK, found it at the ‘correct’ EC&M.
As I read it, the just has a few issues, the first being a politico who didn’t follow thru on a promise.

The second, being another politico, who is working on an issue again, after a failed attempt, but he is still going.

The third, a shortage of electricians, and this new proposal to grant a provisional license to help ease the shortage of electricians. This seems to be an issue in one corner of the state.

Now, as I do not know the rules/reps of doing electrical work in another state, I only know the rules here in NJ, and a limited knowledge of the border states. (PA & NY)

From what I read it `sounds like you require a license to be an electrician in KY, as the ‘contractor’ in the article has 3 licensed electricians & 3 ‘technicians’ who are having issues with the required test. Info from the ‘Test Company’ indicates <50% pass rates.

Personally, I would have no issue with a provisional license, based on the fact that the “Contractor” is 100% responsible for the individuals work performance.

A basic short synopsis of what is required here in NJ is:
To perform electrical contracting for $$$ you need a NJ Electrical Contractor License, and a NJ Electrical Contracting Business Permit. Now approaching 19000 issued.

You MUST have the BP, to legally perform electrical work for $$$. BP requires a bond, insurance proof, etc. The license holder is 100% responsible for all work performed by his employees, who are NOT required to have any license, or ‘card’.

There are guys who have licenses that work for contractors as employees, others who are IBEW members (Journeymen, Foremen, etc).

To pull a permit, it must be the licensed contractor, with his signature and seal.

Will giving a provisional license without passing a test be of any benefit to the people of Kentucky??? Can a person with the provisional license do work & get permits?? Is the ‘contractor’ In the article responsible for the work his “electricians’ perform?


John
Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219670
09/30/18 05:44 PM
09/30/18 05:44 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,050
Brick, NJ USA
An aside to this subject, I for one of us who busted his bun to work, study, take required classes, take and pass the tests, am NOT personally is favor of an ‘easy way’, even if it is disguised as a provisional, 1 year thing.

I feel that my opinion is shared by most/all of us who are ‘licensed’ .


John
Re: License to survive [Re: HotLine1] #219671
10/01/18 04:52 AM
10/01/18 04:52 AM
S
sparky  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
Quote
Personally, I would have no issue with a provisional license, based on the fact that the “Contractor” is 100% responsible for the individuals work performance.


Nor I, as there are already a number of states that follow suit


Quote
Will giving a provisional license without passing a test be of any benefit to the people of Kentucky??? Can a person with the provisional license do work & get permits?? Is the ‘contractor’ In the article responsible for the work his “electricians’ perform?


Let's me put it this way, who would want to be under the knife of a surgeon ,who was granted license by a state because s/he couldn't pass a test?

How's about a lawyer that didn't pass the bar?

Many analogies could follow suit, the jist is here is the devaluing of labor cloaked in the guise of the current gestalt of deregulation

The backburn being a hornets nest of litigation due to substandard work on the horizon

classic 'wag the dog'......

[/quote]
Quote
An aside to this subject, I for one of us who busted his bun to work, study, take required classes, take and pass the tests, am NOT personally is favor of an ‘easy way’, even if it is disguised as a provisional, 1 year thing.

I feel that my opinion is shared by most/all of us who are ‘licensed’


We [i]all
did HotOne.

And we forget, it was all those that came before us that fought for those standards to exist.

The NFPA, IAEI, NEC, NECA, NEMA , IBEW did not form overnight.

they handed us a benchmark ,along with all it's bureaucratic bells and whistles.

no, they're not perfect, but not beyond reproach either.

So to have a trade rag, one that allegedly caters to the electrical trade openly and publicly advocate it all thrown under the bus is, sacrilege


jmho

~S~

Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219672
10/01/18 02:09 PM
10/01/18 02:09 PM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,323
Estero,Fl,usa
I see 2 issues here. One is the idea that you want your electricians to be qualified and the other is there really are people who can't take a test.
I have seen a number of people who were really good at their jobs but blew the test time after time. I feel bad some time because tests are easy for me, even when I don't really know as much as the guy who fails. I am not sure what the answer is but maybe the tests should be structured to be more understandable to the kind of folks who get into the trades. I understand the government likes electronically scored multiple guess tests but that may not really be the best way to test for the skills an electrician needs. In a lot of cases it is actually more of a reading comprehension test than a trade skill test. Unfortunately the bureaucrats who set these things up tend to be the ones who did well on their SATs and got a degree from college but they don't have a clue what they are actually talking about.

Where I am that is all moot anyway. All we need here is one guy with the EC license and everyone is just an employee. You can show up with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wire nuts and you are an electrician.
I am watching a 4 plex going up now for a friend and the crew consists of a lead man who is pretty good at what he is doing but his skill may not go very deep. Then there are a half dozen or more other guys who seem to just do one thing each. One guy hangs boxes, a few guys string Romex, another guy does strapping and sealing etc. This is more like an assembly line than what you think of as an electrical job
They do go fast tho and the work is pretty when they finish.
The EC cruises through now and then, usually when the GC is there with issues or questions.
I walked the job like an inspector, looking around and it all seemed to be legal.


Greg Fretwell
Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219673
10/01/18 05:15 PM
10/01/18 05:15 PM
S
sparky  Offline OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,371
I'm sorry Greg

but those that can't pass a test, and do work that 'looks good to me' is 1/2 my biz up here where maintenance and home improvement companies hire trade wash outs to steal our work.



our state attorney general sent out an inquiry to every licensed trade last fall.
the jist was if these sorts should have any sort of certification
because they've had the 'litigant radish'



and quite frankly....so have I

~S~

Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219674
10/01/18 05:16 PM
10/01/18 05:16 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,050
Brick, NJ USA
Greg:
The assembly line type work as about the same up here, one lead guy who does a ‘mark out’. Box guys, hole drillers, nm pullers and strip/splice guy(s). THere is another crew that does the trim out finish. That is the way the McMansions are roughed, and the EC does a walk thru check before inspection. All the decent guys work like this.

Yes, an EC with the license & business permit with his employees; the resi guys don’t really care about a ‘title’; call them what you want. The skill levels, and workmanship for the most part are quality.

Yes, in some cases it is a shame that a guy with ‘job skills’ can’t pass the tests to get a Lic. & BP. It’s been a long time since I took the EC tests and honestly, I have no clue of the depth of the tests here now. NJ does have a ‘journeyman’ card available from the State, but I don’t know the qualifications required, or if it’s a ‘test’ or based on time in the trade.

The issue with what is laid it in the EC&M article in the opinions expressed by myself and sparky reflect how we feel about handing out licenses without any qualifications.

Another issue, and maybe another thread, is how about the guys with the required Licence and BP signing for jobs that they don’t have a clue about. I call them ‘paperhangers’ if you get what I mean. We are chasing a few of them as I speak.

A licence and BP (required here) are something that is earned, and should be respected and not abused.


John
Re: License to survive [Re: sparky] #219676
10/01/18 05:21 PM
10/01/18 05:21 PM
HotLine1  Offline

Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,050
Brick, NJ USA
This could get really interesting if/when some of the other guys jump in.

Think about Reno, Bob Badger, SparkyWV66 (Virgil) and the rest of the old crew.


John
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