ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Top Posters(30 Days)
Trumpy 3
Recent Posts
Weatherhead, POA, height?
by JimL. 06/23/17 12:07 AM
Windows 7 update problem
by ampherder. 06/21/17 07:01 AM
Norwegian power?
by dsk. 06/19/17 03:40 PM
Anyone ever take a Furnas A14D drum sw apart?
by gfretwell. 06/17/17 08:14 PM
Mains supply in GDR
by dsk. 06/15/17 04:02 PM
New in the Gallery:
SE cable question
Popular Topics(Views)
238,154 Are you busy
173,322 Re: Forum
166,193 Need opinion
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 75 guests, and 10 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#217930 - 01/11/17 04:18 PM Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea?  
LongRunner  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 47
Albany, Western Australia
This is something I've thought about quite a bit, that seemed to make too much sense to ignore: Having extra-low voltage DC circuits within a building, produced by a few beefy power supply units in suitable locations.

Motivation
Apart from heating, air conditioning and refrigeration, the lion's share of other devices in a modern household have relatively low power requirements. And most of those, being electronic in nature, also natively work at low DC voltages, therefore requiring a power supply unit to convert the mains to whatever the device itself needs.

What this idea basically amounts to, then, is to move the mains-to-DC conversion from individual small PSUs at the point-of-use, to a few big PSUs that several devices can share the output of. So, what advantages does this confer? Let's find out...

Why small PSUs can be a nuisance
To convert the mains (240VAC or whatever) to a suitable voltage for the device, with safety isolation, there are two basic methods:

In decades past (and still to this day if you want a low AC output), you used linear power supplies (a mains-frequency step-down transformer, followed by a rectifier to convert the lower AC voltage to pulsating DC, a capacitor to smooth those pulses into a continuous output, and maybe a regulator if a precise, constant voltage is needed). While reliable, they tend to be relatively inefficient, heavy, and bulky, rendering them often unattractive.

The more modern approach is to use switching power supplies. In grossly simplified terms (as they are quite complex), a basic SMPS consists of a mains-voltage rectifier and smoothing capacitor, then the resulting ~340VDC is "chopped" into pulses at high frequency (typically on the order of 100kHz) which are fed into a much smaller, ferrite-cored transformer. The secondary of this transformer is fed through a high-speed rectifier (usually a Schottky type, or even MOSFETs switched on and off in time for lower loss), into a smaller output capacitor (which should be of a low ESR type). Regulation of the output voltage is achieved by adjusting the duty cycle of the "chopped" pulses.

So, let's look at some of the problems with such small switching supplies (many of them explained in detail in this article, questioning the wisdom of the Australian ban on "inefficient" DC-output supplies):
  • As they are often built down to a price, their performance and reliability will not be the best possible. It is very common, for example, that when low-quality electrolytic capacitors are used, they will dry out prematurely and cut the life of an SMPS short - and this is often exacerbated by using capacitors with an insufficient ripple current rating for the job, resulting in internal heating. Surge protection, if present at all, will be limited to 1 or 2 rather small metal-oxide varistors. Most of the smaller units don't have PFC circuitry, either, resulting in harmonic distortion of the input current (which can't be removed easily once present). Even over-voltage protection may be wishful thinking. Size constraints don't help with any of this, either.
  • The high switching frequencies present necessitate additional capacitors and inductors to reduce RFI to acceptable levels. While the inductors are quite innocuous, the same cannot be said for the "class Y" capacitors present between the primary and secondary circuits of most "off-line" SMPS; while they are rated to (hopefully) not pose a danger to humans, they can still hold enough charge to threaten signal inputs and outputs of devices, when the circumstances allow them to (quite readily, given that these supplies are generally of "double-insulated" construction, with no protective earth connection).
  • Internally, considerable "creepage" spacing is mandated by safety standards, between the primary and secondary circuits of such supplies (usually >6mm for a supply used on nominal 230V mains) - but it is still not inconceivable that some failures could result in a breach, particularly if an electrolytic capacitor blows its top, spraying electrolyte and/or scattering shredded foil and paper throughout the unit. Of course, many of the shady no-name Chinese supplies don't even bother to comply with the standards, and I don't need to tell you that those are death traps waiting to go off... Also, in keeping the size down, creepage spacing within the primary circuits of small SMPS is often made narrower than ideal, increasing the risk of tracking across (how many actual failures does this cause, I'm not in a position to judge, but I thought it worth mentioning anyway).
Many devices will, of course, still require a DC-DC converter to step down whatever voltage we choose for the DC branch circuits, to the lower voltages they use. These will have fewer problems than the small "off-line" supplies, though (power factor is irrelevant to DC, only minimal surge protection should be necessary, isolation if still needed will be much easier than at full mains voltage), and can be made smaller.

Another arrangement, used for low-current supplies that don't need isolation from the mains, is the capacitive dropper. They have two main failings - a horrendous leading power factor (though not usually that big of a deal in the overall scheme of things), and many of the capacitors used have a bad habit of losing capacitance, resulting in unreliable operation of the appliance (or no operation at all if they get bad enough).

What plug?
In Australia, as has been mentioned before, we have a plug (Clipsal 492/32 or equivalent) designed specifically for ELV supplies, with two pins in a "T" configuration. Construction is similar to our mains-voltage plugs and it's rated for up to 15A, at 32VAC nominal (and 110VDC?). Unfortunately, there's a disagreement between Victoria and the rest of the nation over which polarity it should be wired with, so if we go with it, the appliances should definitely be protected against reversed input.

As for the rest of the world, I don't know...

What voltage to use?
Obviously, this is a compromise between safety and efficiency (keeping losses down), but I'm thinking a nominal 48V or failing that, 24V (either of which is reasonably "standard"). I would then design the appliances to handle at least between 90% and 110% of the nominal (43.2-52.8V, or 21.6-26.4V respectively). (As for individual tolerances, I would allow perhaps -0% to +5% at the PSU, and a drop of 5% of the nominal in the circuit wires. The remaining 5% under that can be taken as allowing for any further drops in the appliance flex, etc.)

Not being entirely confident that separated extra-low voltage (SELV) can be maintained indefinitely, I would rather go with protected extra-low voltage (PELV), where the negative conductor is earthed at the PSU. (A "crowbar" circuit could then be installed, to shunt positive to negative if a grossly excessive voltage somehow ends up there.)

I'd probably go with 15A per circuit, that being the rating of the Australian ELV plug.

So I'll do a quick bit of math to check that these are reasonable demands: Let's take 2.5mm2 conductors, which will have a resistance of approximately 8 milliohms per metre per conductor (allowing a modest temperature rise), so will lose 240mV per metre of cable (counting both ways) under the mentioned 15A load. So with the allowable 5% drop (2.4V out of 48V, or 1.2V out of 24V), we can run the cable for up to 10m from the PSU with 48V, or 5m with 24V. That seems workable enough to me (if you need to extend it a bit further, you could use 4mm2 or maybe even 6mm2 for a proportional increase in length).

Switching, fusing
One of the problems with DC, apart from being rather impractical for large-scale power distribution, is that it's much harder on opening mechanical contacts than AC of the same magnitude (which is why lots of switches, for example, are marked "AC only"). Mains-rated (250VAC) relays, for example, seem to be typically rated to switch only 30VDC. Switches are similarly affected (though some with reasonably respectable DC ratings can be found). The obvious solution, of course, is to use electronic switching (which is quite a bit easier with DC than with AC) - though the fact that semiconductor failures tend to be as short circuits may present hazards in certain situations.

Fuses suitable for 24VDC, and even 48VDC, seem easy enough to find. A 48VDC rating also seems typical of (AC type) DIN rail MCBs (when specified); and there is an ample range of purpose-made DC MCBs, in any case.

The big PSU(s)
These would be switching supplies, but of course much larger and more powerful than those for individual devices. I'll give an approximate calculation of the power you could get out of one: Let's start with a 10A input, for example (the rating of an IEC 60320-1 C14 inlet, or the basic Australian/NZ outlet), and we want to work down at least to 20% under the nominal voltage; if we take that as 200V (used for high-power appliances in Japan - and of course there's 208V between two phases of a 3-phase supply with 120V from each phase to earth, as used in North America - so I've covered two bases at once here, as well as European 230V), then that gives 160V we need to work down to. Multiply that by the 10A (not accounting for power factor, but the unit should have active PFC to begin with) and we have 1600W available; multiply that by an efficiency of (say) 90%, and we can put out 1440W of DC (30A at 48V, or 60A at 24V altogether).

In order to facilitate easy replacement (as like with any SMPS, it's inevitable that some will fail), I would like the units to be mounted on standardised brackets, with pluggable connections in order so that anyone (able to obtain a replacement PSU) can do it. To keep the outgoing cables to a sensible length, the PSU should (obviously) be installed in the same general area as the DC outlets it feeds.

These big PSUs could also include "bells and whistles" that would be impractical for little plug-pack/"wall wart" units; from almost any fault protection you can name, to a display showing various status attributes. Given how much they would cost, of course, you wouldn't want to skimp on build quality, either.

Lighting and alarms
LED illumination is another obvious candidate for use on a DC system, given that LEDs natively require DC (albeit current limited rather than at a fixed voltage). Running the lights off 24/48VDC instead of the mains, also leaves us with one less hazard to contend with in the roof-space.

Alarm systems (for fire, intrusion, etc.) are also great candidates for use with this type of system, which segues us neatly into...

Battery back-up
Providing back-up power to mains operated devices is a relatively complex affair (it needs to be converted to DC and stored in a battery bank, which then has to be converted back to AC when needed). For DC loads, it's a bit easier as they could be simply run at the battery voltage with little more than a fuse or circuit breaker in between (plus maybe a cut-off to prevent the battery from discharging too far and being damaged). (These loads will probably need wider voltage tolerances than -10 to +10% to accommodate the discharge curves of various battery types, though.)

Further isolation (at the loads)?
It may be useful in various situations, for functional reasons (e.g. avoiding ground loops) and/or extra safety (e.g. in wet environments).

Where the purpose of the isolation is solely functional, that'd be almost trivial to meet; a dielectric withstand of 500V or so should pretty much cover it. There may be a small capacitor or two needed across the isolation for RFI suppression, which I might rate for 1-2kVDC conservatively (to withstand any common-mode surges that may be induced into the wiring). I would also consider it prudent to add a high-value resistor (i.e. 100k-1M) from the input negative to the output, to bleed away any static charge that might otherwise build up.

When added for safety, it may be stronger, perhaps even up to the equivalent of a single-level mains voltage isolation. (You shouldn't ever have mains voltage on the ELV wiring, of course, but that's not to say some buffoon won't put it there at some stage...)

A short-list of various viable loads
  • Lighting, particularly LED
  • Brushless DC fans
  • Some power tools
  • A/V equipment, such as TV sets, media players, radio tuners, preamplifiers, headphone (and smaller power) amplifiers
  • Video game systems
  • PCs (less power-hungry configurations, at least), monitors, and peripherals for them
  • Certain lower-powered heating devices, such as soldering irons (and maybe an electric blanket?)
  • Many novelty items
Basically, this includes most loads up to perhaps two or three hundred watts.

In conclusion
So as far as I understand it, the advantages of this kind of set-up would be:
  • Safety - less mains wiring to worry about
  • Easy battery back-up (for lights, alarms, etc.)
  • Avoids at least some of the problems that plague small PSUs
That leaves us with the following disadvantages:
  • A bit of extra voltage drop in the ELV wiring under heavier loads
  • If the PSU fails, it brings down the power to several items instead of just one (that's not to say you couldn't implement redundant PSUs like in high-end servers, of course)
  • If you want to use an appliance specifically made for the ELV DC system in a building that hasn't had one put in, you'll have to bring along a portable version of the PSU (but I think I can live with that)
In a way, we've already made a small step in this direction, with the availability of wall outlets with built-in USB charging ports. But I'm not overly keen on the idea of hard-wiring a small off-line SMPS (or several) into the electrical installation, having discussed that they already have enough problems. rolleyes Adding USB charging sockets with their required 5V derived from the 24V/48V/whatever by small DC-DC converters would, of course, be quite straightforward.

Feel free, now, to discuss how well this would work out, if I've missed anything, or if you would do it differently.


Test Equipment:
Large Selection of Test Equipment For Electrical, HVAC, Test & Measurement
Large Selection of Test Equipment For Electrical, HVAC, Test & Measurement

#217944 - 01/14/17 10:41 PM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: LongRunner]  
Trumpy  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,214
SI,New Zealand
LongRunner,
This is quite an interesting topic.
In my normal day job (dairy equipment installation/repair) I deal with a lot of ELV stuff, by convention all control circuits must run off either 12V or 24V AC or DC.
I have a pet hate of SMPS equipment, in that you can put in all the protection you like, against power spikes and what have you, but if I had a dollar for every SMPS unit I'd had to replace over the years, I'd probably be retired now.
Give me a standard linear power supply, they run all day, every day.

I recall reading years ago, in a copy of Electronics Australia an article that mentioned that Sydney, Australia for years used a DC reticulation system and at the time that the article went to print, this system was still in use, I can't recall what voltage it used but I think it was in the area of 250VDC?, as you can probably imagine, switching something like that would have it's own problems with things like arc-quenching when the circuit was turned off.



Let's face it, these days if you're not young, you're old - Red Green grin

#217949 - 01/15/17 03:48 PM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: LongRunner]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,083
Estero,Fl,usa
These days the default plug is becoming 5vDC in the USB-1 configuration and the manufacturers are integrating that into "mains" receptacle devices. I have a few of those.
I though of running 12vdc circuits in a remodel but voltage drop becomes a problem when the wires get very long. I do have a 12v supply in the garage as part of my pool and spa controller and I tapped off of that for a few other things. That is just a terminal block with spade connectors. Originally it was a transformer/regulator supply but that got replaced with a switcher.


Greg Fretwell

#217952 - 01/16/17 10:17 AM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: LongRunner]  
Texas_Ranger  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,397
Vienna, Austria
I haven't done any detailed calculations but from what I remember it isn't worth it - you have to use such large conductors to compensate for voltage drop it becomes too costly. I faintly remember an eco-nut who built his own house off-grid in the late 90s and ran 24 V lighting (or maybe it was 12 V) throughout a rather average single-family home. He used 6 mm2 wire! Don't ask me how he connected that to light switches!


#217953 - 01/16/17 11:42 AM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: Texas_Ranger]  
LongRunner  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 47
Albany, Western Australia
Well, it was obvious that running ELV all the way through a house would be rather inefficient, which is why I figured it would work better to place the PSUs inside the building, near(er) to the loads. Equally obvious was that less than 24V would be unwieldy, so that's why I picked 48V as the first choice in my post (for the same power delivered, each doubling of voltage reduces the wiring losses by a factor of 4, remember); as going much above that would bring us back into the "hazardous" range. With 48V at 15A (720W) you could just about heat a small room, even (though I'd stick with mains for that, so as not to "waste" heat in a PSU that may well be outside the room being heated). If the anticipated loads are sparsely placed, then you might opt for several smaller PSUs rather than a few big ones, so the wires don't have to run as far from each unit (and can also be of a smaller cross-section). You could of course also get a total span up to double the calculated length for a single cable, if you ran cables in opposing directions from the PSU...

The quick-and-dirty way to connect those 6mm2 wires to smaller terminals, presuming that they have 7 strands, would be to cut off 4 of the strands and then terminate the other 3 (2.57mm2 worth); while not recommended anywhere, provided the actual loading isn't above the (thermal) limit of 2.5mm2 you could get away with it pretty much forever. (Alternatively, use two strands for 1.71mm2, or just one for 0.86mm2.) On that topic, you might like to see Aussie240's effort at wiring up a half-decently functional 12V supply for lights and electronics...


#217966 - 01/17/17 07:25 AM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: LongRunner]  
geoff in UK  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 183
UK
I worked in aerospace, in engineering laboratories where we had to distribute 28volt DC supplies around large areas. A can confirm that we used a LOT of copper in these installations. Not too serious in what is already a high cost environment but wouldn't be economic for domestic use.
LED lighting may make low voltage economic for lighting in fairly compact buildings but available lamps I've seen are mostly 12volts.
Regarding the 5volt mains socket+USB units, what is anyone's experience with reliability? I put one in about two years ago and I'm going to have to replace it as the USB sockets are worn to the point of being intermittent.


#217969 - 01/17/17 03:18 PM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: LongRunner]  
ghost307  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 902
Chicago Illinois USA
As a former kid who had a big electric train set; you run into voltage drop issues in much less than 100' unless you start seriously upsizing the conductors.

You'll rapidly reach the point of diminishing returns where it just makes sense to run mains voltage to the point of use and stick a small transformer right at the load.


Ghost307

#217980 - 01/17/17 05:26 PM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: geoff in UK]  
gfretwell  Offline


Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,083
Estero,Fl,usa
Originally Posted by geoff in UK

Regarding the 5volt mains socket+USB units, what is anyone's experience with reliability? I put one in about two years ago and I'm going to have to replace it as the USB sockets are worn to the point of being intermittent.

I have a Leviton on the end of a counter that is a few years old but we usually leave the cables plugged in so it does not get beat up that bad. I can see where the USB socket could go bad if you were plugging and unplugging every day.

[Linked Image]


Greg Fretwell

#218100 - 01/27/17 07:11 PM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: gfretwell]  
geoff in UK  Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 183
UK
Originally Posted by gfretwell
[quote=geoff in UK]
Regarding the 5volt mains socket+USB units, what is anyone's experience with reliability? I put one in about two years ago and I'm going to have to replace it as the USB sockets are worn to the point of being intermittent.

I have a Leviton on the end of a counter that is a few years old but we usually leave the cables plugged in so it does not get beat up that bad. I can see where the USB socket could go bad if you were plugging and unplugging every day.

Out of interest, I did a "post mortem" on the faulty outlet. It turned out that the USBs themselves were not worn, but the soldering of the cases of them to their little PCB had failed. ie dry jointed!- a manufacturing quality failing. In the PCB design the casing had been used as part of the -ve path, hence the intermittent connection. I re-soldered the board to prove the diagnosis and it then worked OK.


#218189 - 02/06/17 05:42 AM Re: Would ELV branch circuits be a good idea? [Re: gfretwell]  
LongRunner  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 47
Albany, Western Australia
The full-size USB connectors are only rated for 1,500 insertions, so could wear out within 5 years if plugged/unplugged daily. (Micro-USB is rated for 10,000 insertions, and the older Mini-USB for 5,000.)

Overall, not quite as enthusiastic a response as I hoped for initially, but thanks anyway for the discussion.

Last edited by LongRunner; 02/06/17 05:44 AM.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Member Spotlight
Bill Addiss
Bill Addiss
NY, USA
Posts: 3,878
Joined: October 2000
Show All Member Profiles 
Featured:

2017 NEC and Related
2017 NEC
Now Available!

Shout Box
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.024s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 0.8381 MB (Peak: 1.0188 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-06-23 13:48:14 UTC