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Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215401 05/03/15 12:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,408
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gfretwell Offline
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At a certain point, you just need to trust 240.4(D).
If you are not popping breakers, you are doing OK.

I do think that anyone who needs 4.8KW worth of counter top appliances to cook dinner needs to learn how to use the stove.


Greg Fretwell
Work Gear for Electricians and the Trades
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215404 05/04/15 10:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
renosteinke Offline OP
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Ha! Just think for a moment, and I bet you can come up with a few common kitchen appliance I missed- like, say, the bread machine and the waffle maker!

A common "combo" might be using the Foreman grill on a burger while the rice cooker works on the red beans & rice. Now, there's a nice, quick meal for the single guy. Will you pop the breaker? Well, look at the table ....

At the other extreme, there's always the house full of teens rushing around as they get ready for school. I bet someone has seen a hair dryer laying on the kitchen counter ...

Nor can I forget my favorite- the SRO fleabag "residence hotel' where they think that a compact fridge with a micro sitting atop it, next to the bed ... and the bathroom sink nearby, make the room a "kitchenette." Hmm.... does that mean the bath circuit is also an SABC?

Big stoves are nice, but it seems the folk who want the stoves also want enough counter space you could land a fighter jet on the kitchen island. With all that space to fill ... well, I suppose that explains the demand for an endless variety of appliances.

Speaking of which ... just in from a road trip, and the hotel had a new gizmo in the 'breakfast bar.' They had an AUTOMATED pancake maker. Push button, wait a bit, and two flapjacks drop out the side. http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/07/chefstack-automatic-pancake-machine-for-all-your-pancake-part/

Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215409 05/05/15 10:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,121
HotLine1 Offline
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Reno:

Could/would you please explain.......

"I've said it before: A "good" design meets code, while a "code minimum" design is almost always poor design- and often doesn't meet code!"

My friend, could you please explain how a 'code minimum' design could possibly not meet code.

You also mention.....

"....that a dedicated 20-amp circuit is wasteful to the point that it might even be considered a code violation."

Yes, the current generation of refrigerators are efficient, but I cannot grasp how a dedicated 120/20 circuit could be considered a 'code violation'?



John
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215411 05/05/15 12:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,408
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gfretwell Offline
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If the fridge is on a 20, it can have other kitchen loads on it. The only dedicated fridge circuit is the 15a in 210.52(B)(1) ex2. Otherwise it can be on one of the SA circuits.
As I said earlier, mine is still on the bathroom vanity light circuit and I never saw a reason to change it.


Greg Fretwell
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: gfretwell] #215412 05/05/15 01:09 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 381
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Hutch Offline
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When I lived in the States for five years (2000-5), I had with me a number of European/South African tools and appliances which required a 240V supply. My challenge was to seek out compliant ways to service this equipment, the most popular being our British kettle – it’s that tea thing we have!

By US standards it was a beast, rated at 3kW it roared to aqueous phase transition in a matter of a few minutes. Certainly surprised my US boss when we made him a pot of tea.

I had quite a debate here at that time as to the ins and outs of legitimate supply, but cutting a long story short, 240V circuits for dedicated equipment were in code, and didn’t then require a AFCI/GFCI breaker either. You get much more bang for your buck at 240V! smile

Last edited by Hutch; 05/05/15 01:11 PM.
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215413 05/05/15 04:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
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Tesla Offline
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Hutch, with the notable exception of Sweden (and much later, Poland) Europe has been a massive copper importer.

The metal savings (field wiring) at the higher voltage were noted many generations ago.

The weird thing is the decision to go to 50 Hertz. This, along with the voltage norm, was deliberately selected to keep American (NEMA standard) products out of European markets -- all the way back in the 19th Century.

This push is still on -- with Paris -- as ever -- leading the way.

[The primary reason for the green-yellow earthing conductor in all European devices is to thwart American solid green grounding conductor products. All other wire color norms were likewise selected to be not-American standard.]

The kicker with 50 Hertz power is that all transformers and motors have to be built larger to handle the same amount of power. It does save on radiated energy. (power company distribution losses that don't show up on retail power bills)

So 50 Hertz made more economic sense for America (very large) whereas 60 Hertz made more economic sense for Europe. (almost tiny by comparison) Such is mercantile politics... and the accidents of history.



Tesla
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215414 05/05/15 04:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,121
HotLine1 Offline
Member
Greg:
My question is regarding what Reno stated, and is not directed at a refrig in particular.

I can't get a grip on what he may be referring to.



John
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: Tesla] #215415 05/05/15 05:51 PM
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Posts: 381
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Hutch Offline
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Tesla,

As I discussed many years ago, the decision for the US to standardise on 120V was the penalty for being first in the game and the numbers were such that to adopt a higher domestic voltage was thwarted by the quantity of those already supplied. A tension of 240V was always part of the supply equation even in the US – grounded centre tapped – and this was replicated in the limited 120-0-120V DC municipal supplies in the UK that were available until the 1940’s.

In Europe the advantages of a higher supply voltage were able to be rolled out to their customer base - because it was smaller at the time. In the UK a 240V line to ground, 3-phase, was standardized with the delivery of AC power. In continental Europe, 3-phase 127V line to ground systems were the initially norm (230V phase to phase).

The colours are a hang-over of various national systems. In the UK pre 1970’s the domestic wiring colours were red (phase), black (neutral {grounded in US}), and solid green (earth{grounding in US}). Other European countries had other systems – in the German-speaking world, red was earth (Grounded)!! Imagine that for cross-border co-operation!

The colours were changed to the present because a significant proportion of the male population is red-green colour blind and this had a Darwinian effect on those UK electricians and their customers. Brown, blue and yellow/green wiring can be distinguished by most members of the population – it has absolutely nothing to do with protectionism.

All UK railroad signalling equipment is 110V – a hangover from when Westinghouse (USA) first supplied most of the world’s railway electronic signalling equipment. My spare US domestic stuff now sits with my local tourist railway where I volunteer my services at a weekend.

As for the frequency – I have heard it said that Tesla (your namesake) adopted 60Hz by experiment in the local city supply environment. Europe was always (post-Napoleon) driven by metrication and 50Hz, thus comprised 100 phase peaks per second – i.e. nicely metric.

But meanwhile, back to kitchen stuff …

Last edited by Hutch; 05/05/15 05:52 PM.
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215416 05/05/15 06:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
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Tesla Offline
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John...

I rather suspect that Reno is crossing over the LEED and other eco centric 'codes' that have 'electrical Puritanism' as their goal.

'Electrical Puritanism' is why California's PUC has cranked up retail electrical power rates to staggering levels: $0.45/ hW-Hr for marginal energy consumption -- which is plainly a sumptuary tax -- for the sin of using more juice than the 'sustainability crowd' deems appropriate.

Distasteful as it is: eco-politics has entered our trade.

Step by step the NEC is being used -- along with the PUC power schedule -- along with Title 24 (California building code law) -- to 'address' ecological concerns.

One example out of many: the NEC requirement to bring neutrals down into all switch boxes -- a provision that can't possibly have a 'safety angle' -- but is demanded by the smart switch (Internet of things) crowd.

This recent provision is almost exclusive to residential builds. It's not required for pipe & wire jobs.

(Due to economics, it's been my practice to bring down neutrals to commercial switches (in MC) just about forever. The 'economics' being the low level of training acquired by my (green and under-paid) apprentices. The complicated (a,b) switching schemes demanded by Title 24 make 'banding neutrals' just too much trouble. (Prone to circuit screw-ups and re-work.)

Title 24 provisions may start in California -- but they don't stay there. With a modicum of delay, the Feds end up mandating California standards whenever they make sense/ the products are available in quantity.

As for politics: the guys actually driving this are fellows like "Meathead" -- yes, the original "All in the Family Meathead: Rob Reiner, Jr. He's now a political activist -- and hugely involved in thwarting tobacco and... electric power consumption. He and his buddies sit on more than a few Southern California (highly politicized) environmental boards.

In sum: Hollywood elites are actually making national energy policy. When this deflects off into campaigns against the Keystone pipeline -- we're just bystanders.

I fully expect the NEC to become fused to the eco movement -- and to see BAS and other smart regimes extended down to residential construction.

We will no longer be held to JUST the NEC. A stack of additional codes will impact our craft.

And this is not just an American 'thing.' The Green movement (of Germany) is now huge in energy policy/ electrical policy across all of Europe. [There is irony here, the founder of the German Greens was raised and educated in Minneapolis, Minnesota.(!)]

Since this trend gives every indication of being irreversible -- and largely bi-partisan -- our only practical gambit is to ride this wave of regulations.

Which means:

1) Get up to speed as to what's coming down the pike. For most of you that means keeping an eye on California's Title 24 regulations. They WILL be extended to your town -- sooner or later.

2) Get up to speed on all of the new super efficient equipment and lighting. There can be no doubt that practically everything currenly installed will have to be swapped out/ upgraded BEFORE the end of its design life.

This reality has already totally taken over the HVAC field. Those boys are busier than jackrabbits swapping out old for new everywhere you turn.

3) Which means that you need to re-approach every client with upgrade proposals L O N G before you think their lighting is due. Just on the economics -- like PC computers -- the old needs replacement long before it breaks.

After all, that's the entire point about inflicting $ 0.45/ kW-Hr marginal rates.

In most areas, all site lighting is overdue for LED upgrade.

4) LED tech also means LOW VOLTAGE field wiring... in many cases. Consequently, one can install (retrofit) LED trim lighting in spots not previously considered: all perimeter eaves -- ESPECIALLY along the walkways from the driveway to the front porch.

&&&&&&

In sum: "code" is now a term that is not confined to the NEC -- even for electricians.

Scott 35 has previously listed some of the codes that are active for California eletrical contractors. They do go on.




Tesla
Re: "Typical" Kitchen Appliances [Re: renosteinke] #215417 05/05/15 06:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
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Tesla Offline
Member
Hutch...

European protectionism got started across their own borders -- long before America came to be.

It was absolutely no accident that the various nations kept popping up with different wire color schemes... which extended from field wiring on into their equipment internals.

The bit about the European grounding conductor banding is of public record. Paris made absolutely NO BONES ABOUT IT.

At the time of its adoption -- not one single European power had that green-yellow banding. Most were using solid green.

The last time I looked Paris had gotten the Common Market to adopt a flaminingly anti-NEMA standard: namely that if a given product was built to a NEMA standard then it was prohibited as an import!

They argued that the vast scale of American electrical manufactures meant that such a total exclusion was the ONLY way to preserve any market position for any European manufacturer. Yes, it passed -- and has been adopted.

The result is that American electrical exports to Europe have to be built on entirely separate assembly lines -- when they are attempted. (Robotics are now making themselves a real threat on this front -- as they can switch from NEMA to DIN standards at the flip of a digital switch.)

To compound the irony: Square D is wholly owned by a French firm (Group Schneider) -- and is as big as they come. Then you have Siemens... Electrolux...

Electrical products are a major trade item for the Europeans -- and are inseparable from politics for them -- and always have been. Many of their manufacturers were at one time or another state owned. (!)

You'd might be interested in the GE to CitiCorp (First National City Bank back then) to AEG deals that were sown up in the late twenties and early thirties. These provided cross-licensing and equity positions -- of epic scope. The Americans provided big bucks, patents and acquired a massive minority stake in AEG.

It will then not surprise you to find out that Westinghouse and Siemens stood in the opposite corner!

Westinghouse and GE raced around the planet competing with each other. In an accident of history, Westinghouse ended up with a monster position in China -- well before WWII.

It was this position that caused Siemens to buy out Westinghouse, many decades later.

GE, of course, went Japanese -- and is tied into Hitachi -- big time.

With firms of such scale, mercantile politics is never off the table.



Tesla
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