ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Increasing demand factors in residential
by gfretwell - 03/28/24 12:43 AM
Portable generator question
by Steve Miller - 03/19/24 08:50 PM
Do we need grounding?
by NORCAL - 03/19/24 05:11 PM
240V only in a home and NEC?
by dsk - 03/19/24 06:33 AM
Cordless Tools: The Obvious Question
by renosteinke - 03/14/24 08:05 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
1 members (Scott35), 269 guests, and 15 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
Most standard nail-on 3/0, 4/0 and hanger boxes are called ceiling boxes. These boxes are commonly used for wall use. I couldn't find anything on the net that says they can be used in walls so I called the tech line on their web page. Dumb question right? Well they said they would call back with an answer but never did. Carlon plastic type L boxes (see link below)are stamped "for use in ceiling with non-metallic wiring systems only." These boxes would be perfect for wall use because the bracket is in the side back which allows them to be set out further for the thickness of stucco. The ears on standard 3/0 nail-ons are set too far forward so it's a problem if you have to set them behind shear panel. Got any input on this?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/b6/b636b22a-ab5e-4ed1-9eb9-92d77265149c_300.jpg

Stay up to Code with the Latest NEC:


>> 2023 NEC & Related Reference & Exam Prep
2023 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides

Pass Your Exam the FIRST TIME with the Latest NEC & Exam Prep

>> 2020 NEC & Related Reference & Study Guides
 

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
Member
The very dimensions of the (octagon) Carlon J-box were selected for ceilings. Octagon boxes were originally crafted for ye old classic porcelain Edison socket style outlet. (key-less or switched)

Subsequently, other light fixtures were dimensioned to directly affix to said octagon J-boxes – or to enclose an adapter plate for same. (spider ring and/ or lumière strap)

The additional weights involved caused the NEMA players to come out with up-rated designs that could handle ever heavier lumières. These became known as “hanger boxes.”

In the latest incarnation, hanger boxes have been up-rated to “fan-rated.” Not surprisingly, considering the price premiums and the usage, all such boxes became known as ceiling boxes.

That's a thumbnail history of the octagon box, and its (round, ie Romex-BX era) sisters.

[ The octagon provided flat surfaces facing side-ways in an era when piping was common – all of this before BX or Romex. It's that old. ]

If I was piping towards an Edison socket, I might still use an octagon box.(metallic) But, if you visit any big box store you'll notice that octagon boxes are (now) thinly stocked. (metallic or plastic)

&&&

Any ceiling rated box is also sure to be rated for (less demanging) wall usage. You stumped the tech rep. grin

%%%

I have to say that in my humble experience, pancake J-boxes are the universal norm for stucco exteriors. Hereabouts, stucco is always applied to OSB/ plywood. (exterior grade) So it's no big deal to punch a hole after the sheathing is up and slap on a pancake – which can be placed just about anywhere to suit and at great speed, certainly far faster than setting a box that requires punching a big penetration with a hole-saw.

(The carpenters have finished the rough-in, setting the box and penetration is all on the electrician. The stucco contractor is expected to mesh-in around the pancakes and slather on his green coat, etc.)

Pancakes beat octagons, hands down. Again, these are terminal boxes that only feed a sconce.

The very dimensions of a pancake make it automatically perfect for exterior stucco.

&&&

Lastly, my practice is to always screw such pancakes down. Nails are shunned.




Last edited by Tesla; 05/29/14 05:27 PM.

Tesla
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
Likes: 7
Member
Wewire2:
When you ask 'can they be used in walls?' you may have confused the tech rep. He may think you are asking IF the box is listed/labeled for fire rating. The non-metalic boxes have a UL 'rating' in hours for installation in a rated wall/ceiling assembly. It is molded on the inside back wall, and is not easy to see.

The UL White book is the source of info IF a box is listed for a particular use.

Without reading thru the White Book and risking falling asleep, IMHO I see no reason that you cannot set the box you mention in a wall.


John
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
Thanks Tesla.
Just wondering why they went so far as to to say "for ceiling use". It makes it sound like an exclusive installation method. The problem I see with pancakes is they are only good for one 14-2 and they are almost a 1/2" too shallow for stucco. They do make it simple though. Found some 1-1/2" octo's with NM clamps. I figure I'll hole saw through the shear and keep going enough to recess the box into the stud. Been doing commercial forever and decided to do a house for a change. This'll be the last for another while........

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 368
M
Member
No 1/2 scraps of plywood/chipboard in the jobsite trash pile you could mount a pancake box on to fir it out? Save cutting holes.

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
Member
mbhydro...

Agreed. thumbs


Tesla
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 32
G
Member
Maybe I am confused, Why is stucco an inch thick? It is 3/8 to half when I see it. (stucco over block)


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,723
Likes: 1
Broom Pusher and
Member
Greg;

Quote


Why is stucco an inch thick?



As I remember (it has been a long, long long ^2 time since I last did any Plastering Work),

For Exterior Lath & Plaster (Plaster applied to Metallic Wire Mesh Lath with weatherproof "Tar" Paper backing):

1.: Min. 3/8" Scratch Coat,

2.: Min. 3/8" Brown Coat,

3.: Min. 1/8" Color Coat

If I Remember Correctly (IIRC), Interior Metallic Lath and Plaster dimensions were similar to the Schedule listed above.

Additionally, IIRC for Interior Lath and Plaster (Plaster applied to 3/8" to 1/2" Gypsum Board Lath):

1.: Min. 3/8" Base Coat,

2.: Min. 1/8" Finish Coat.

I have always expected the Plaster to be at least 1" for the total Scratch/Brown/Color Coats on Exteriors, and at least 3/4" overall for Interiors applied to Gypsum Lath.

--Scott (EE)


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 32
G
Member
When they go over block they skip one of those coats and maybe two, only having one 3/8"coat with texture.
The finish is generally painted anyway. It seals it against water better. That may not be an issue out in the desert but here in the swamp, it cuts down on mildew problems.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 244
W
wewire2 Offline OP
Member
Scott, you're right. Stucco is usually right around 7/8"-1" I stick boxes out 3/4". Nothing is worse on finish than having boxes stick out too far and end up installing terra cotta fixtures with a flat back. Well...come to think of it there are worse things like forgetting a wire or plug and switching the wrong house,(Turns out there were 2 houses being built on F street.)Greg, I'm petty sure they paint the stucco over there so the mud from the alligator tails is easier to clean
off smile

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5