ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
Shout Box
Recent Posts
Changing a Bulb
by gfretwell. 07/14/18 03:12 PM
Tray cable?
by gfretwell. 07/11/18 10:18 PM
Eaton Heavy Duty 30A and 60A Safety Switches
by Admin. 07/11/18 09:49 PM
ORTOVOX Recalls Avalanche Transceivers
by Admin. 07/11/18 09:44 PM
Tingle off the water spigot
by gfretwell. 07/08/18 12:58 PM
New in the Gallery:
Plug terminals
Housebilding DIY wiring
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 3 guests, and 14 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Sound Off!! #209458
04/03/13 07:10 PM
04/03/13 07:10 PM
HotLine1  Offline
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,985
Brick, NJ USA
What within the NEC that drives you crazy??




John
2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides
Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209460
04/03/13 08:26 PM
04/03/13 08:26 PM
S
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,349
afci's

~S~

Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209462
04/03/13 09:06 PM
04/03/13 09:06 PM
HotLine1  Offline
OP
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,985
Brick, NJ USA
Short, but a good start. Here in the Garden State, we adopted AFCI with the 2008 NEC, in 2009, and like I said in another thread here, we are living with them.



John
Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209467
04/03/13 11:59 PM
04/03/13 11:59 PM
S
sparkyinak  Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,334
Alaska
Dang it sparky, you beat me to the punch line... thumbs


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209468
04/04/13 02:44 AM
04/04/13 02:44 AM
G
gfretwell  Offline

Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,242
Estero,Fl,usa
I have said it many times but the silliest thing in the NEC process is the 3 year code cycle.
By the time half of the country adopts a release of the codes proposals are closed, comments are closed and the new release is at the printer. We are writing a new code without ever test driving the old one.
We were just told Florida will adopt the 2011 NEC as part of the 2013 Florida building code in March of 2014.

Of course you are also buying all of the various code documents every 3 years and having to pay for update classes and all of the other burdens that brings to the trade.

I think that money stream is the main reason NFPA does it.
"Codes" has become a big business.

Stretching that cycle out to at least 6 years and maybe even 10 years would make a whole lot more sense. Bureaucrats who feel they need something new to do on a regular basis would still have TIAs to evaluate and adopt.

I also think no new equipment should be added to the code as a requirement until it has actually been functioning in the field for a while. They already make accommodations for new listed products as something that is allowed but not required. Let the market drive the desire to buy these things, not a government gun.


Greg Fretwell
Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209469
04/04/13 03:07 AM
04/04/13 03:07 AM
T
twh  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 946
Regina, Sask.
The CEC is the same way but it isn't just about the money. By the time they get a book to the printer, it's already 3 years out of date.

Decisions made by a large committee take an incredible amount of time. Everyone has a comment, a comment on everyone else's comment, and a response to everyone's comments about their own comments. About 10 years ago I got on a mailing list for a proposed change to the CEC. They took a year to decide to do nothing, and I thought that doing nothing was better than some things that were discussed.

The CEC has a section for interpretations for the previous code book. We need to get our new code books just to learn what we should have been doing for the last three years.

Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209484
04/05/13 10:14 AM
04/05/13 10:14 AM
H
harold endean  Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
Boonton, NJ
John,

Where do I start?

TR receptacles, AFCI, Poor wording in the NEC. For example, "As soon as possible", "On or near", "And similar areas".

I get this question all the time.
How come you can use #2 AL to feed a whole house at 100amp, but you have to fuse it at 90 amp if it is a feeder.

Sump pumps on GFI's?

The copper bus bar is not UL listed for AL but the gen panel says that all connections are listed for CU/AL?

These are some of the questions I get all day long from different contractors.

Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209509
04/06/13 02:01 AM
04/06/13 02:01 AM
Scott35  Offline

Broom Pusher and
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,708
Anaheim, CA. USA
I would like to see Article 450 addressed more completely - in particular, more details for Isolated Transformers of 600VAC and less (Section 450.3).

***QUALIFYING RANT***

One Specific Design Issue:

Dry-Type Transformers re-energizing, due to Utility Outage (i.e.: Drunk Driver hitting Primary Distribution Pole; Affected Primary Circuit isolated, Power restored).

Primary Inrush Current Levels (involving mainly KVAR) will average the following:

25x rated Primary FLA for 0.01 Second,

12x rated Primary FLA for 0.1 Second,

3x rated Primary FLA for 10.0 Seconds.

With most of the Transformers / SDS's in my typical Projects, the SDS will be a 4 Wire System; OCPDs will be placed on both sides (Primary OCPD and Secondary OCPD).

Secondary OCP will be set at 1.25 x the Secondary FLA for the Transformer; and the Secondary Conductors are sized to conform to the Secondary OCPD rating.

On the Primary side, the OCPD will be set anywhere from 1.75 to 2.50 x the Primary rated FLA.
This helps reduce Non-Selective Coordinated Primary Trip issues for Inrush and Secondary Faults.

If the Primary Feeders were allowed to be sized per the Primary FLA - instead of the OCPD, this would assist in reducing the Inrush level without increasing the length of the Feeders.

The Primary Feeders would be limited by the Maximum value found on the Secondary side - as the total load allowed would equal up to the rated Secondary FLA per the Transformer's rated KVA.
For Designs where Two Panelboards are fed from a Single Transformer, the combined OCPDs equal no more than 1.25 X the rated Secondary FLA.

The concept is similar to Article 430 - allowing for the Temporary Over Currents of Motor Starting.

In the past, I have Designed some Projects around this idea - with Approval by the local DBS (Plans Examiners plus Electrical Inspectors).

Any comments?

--Scott (EE)

Last edited by Scott35; 04/06/13 02:02 AM. Reason: typical spelling blunders!

Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
Re: Sound Off!! [Re: gfretwell] #209526
04/06/13 08:20 PM
04/06/13 08:20 PM
NickD  Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 46
Amish Country, PA
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I have said it many times but the silliest thing in the NEC process is the 3 year code cycle.


That's a great one, something that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

My main rant... WHY do they "think" it needs to be updated so often? It's not like it's encyclopedic content where there's large amounts of new information in each consecutive edition. Why not take, say, 5 or even 10 years for a code cycle?

There's also something to be said about the history of electrical "code" in general, too. It has become much more strict and "safety-fied" in the last ~40 years than it had been from the first edition in 1897 to the 1970's...

Polarized prong plugs weren't a "commodity" until the 80s... appliances had largely been without them for more than 75 years. It just makes you WONDER how much of new code is legitimate improvements and how much is "just because we can".

Re: Sound Off!! [Re: HotLine1] #209530
04/07/13 01:06 AM
04/07/13 01:06 AM
N
NORCAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 880
I still think AFCI's are snake oil, the idea is good but how to prove they work, you can prove GFCI's work but they went too far, too fast, in expanding AFCI's.


Page 1 of 2 1 2

Featured:

2017 Master Electrician Exam Preparation Combos
2017 NEC Electrician
Exam Prep Combos:
Master / Journeyman

 

Member Spotlight
sparky66wv
sparky66wv
West Virginia
Posts: 2,236
Joined: November 2000
Show All Member Profiles 
Top Posters(30 Days)
Admin 5
Popular Topics(Views)
248,148 Are you busy
185,614 Re: Forum
174,951 Need opinion
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1
(Release build 20180101)
Page Time: 0.038s Queries: 16 (0.006s) Memory: 1.0292 MB (Peak: 1.2091 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-07-21 07:56:16 UTC